Joel Comm just released Adsense 4.0, a long awaited update to his popular Adsense Secrets guide. Joel has had the #1 top-selling Adsense guide on the market for over 3 years now, which has sold for $97.
Today, you can get the latest edition for under ten bucks…
for only $9.95
97 responses so far ↓
Courtney // Apr 16, 2008 at 1:46 pm
You were the first in my inbox with the offer. I can’t wait to dig into it…I’m so excited to have this quality product for such a great price. Adsense is something that I’ve played with but haven’t used extensively because I didn’t have the tools.
Liam // Apr 16, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Thanks for the heads up…
Liam
The Story Ideas Virtuoso // Apr 16, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Printing it out now that I have fully-functioning printer again. But color ink is about to give out. Yep. window just popped up. (I don’t change ink cartridges until I must.) I’m printing it two pages per sheet. Anyone else do that to save trees (or $$)?
Deb Gallardo
Makiingyouricher.com review // Apr 16, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Yes, yes Lynn. Thanks I actually visited the site and am still on it before coming here to your blog.
Though i am not into adsence yet, but from what I’ve heard about Joel Comm abilities (and your recommendation
) I think it’s worth buying.
Thanks for the head up
Juliette (new baby on the way) Gold // Apr 16, 2008 at 2:05 pm
The report looks good value for just $10, but I’m suspicious about the follow-up. It looks like you are forced into subscribing for a $29.95/month subscription to his newsletter, with only vague instructions as to how to cancel.
I can see that you could easily lose one or two $29.95 payments before getting that subscription cancelled. Why can’t he make it an option to subscribe?
I’ll give it a miss until I can be sure it’s for real.
Ta ra
J
Lynn Terry // Apr 16, 2008 at 3:56 pm
I passed on that follow-up offer, J - and clicked through the screens to get to the download page, so I didnt pay attention to it. It *is* an option - you can pay only for the guide at 9.95 and skip the upsell
Courtney // Apr 16, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Actually the $29.95 newsletter is part of the regular download, and not the upsell. I still think the book is worth even though I’ll have to mark it on my calendar to cancel before the $30 charge….or not.
Lynn Terry // Apr 16, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Thank you for the clarification Courtney - obviously I didnt read the fine print. Or any of the copy at all lol - being a returning customer I was presold before I arrived on the page… Got me! I look forward to checking out the free report and will make the decision then
Alice // Apr 16, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Oh no…Joel’s forcing continuity too.
But actually, it’s reasonably clear on the details of the order page, but not on the actual payment form. I wonder if that’s a limitation in 1SC that they really should fix.
Lynn Terry // Apr 16, 2008 at 6:17 pm
In a case like this, where the majority of buyers are “presold” and only go to the site to find the order button, I do think it should be made clear on the order confirmation page (when entering payment details). No big deal, as I’m interested in the report - but I’m curious what percentage of buyers actually realized there was a recurring charge involved…
Joel // Apr 17, 2008 at 7:38 am
Hey Gang!
I wanted to make sure we were completely and totally up front on the sales page AND the order form.
Two things you should know.
1) I don’t produce sub-par stuff. This newsletter is going to exceed and surpass everyone’s expectations. I really want to get the first issue into people’s hands so I can demonstrate this.
2) We’re making it very easy to cancel if you don’t want to continue. My support desk is easy to reach and our email and phone # are public in the newsletter itself. I will NEVER make it difficult for people to reach us, nor will I refuse a refund request. People have been burned in the past by some marketers. It will not happen with me.
I hope everyone enjoys the book and I can’t wait for you to see the report!
Joel
Lynn Terry // Apr 17, 2008 at 8:32 am
Thank you for the clarification, Joel. I do think with any continuity program it is good measure to mention it on the checkout page - especially in a case where a high percentage of your buyers are pre-sold before they arrive on the sales page. People like me dont read the sales copy… we click the buy button
Just for the record, I’ve been a repeat customer of Joel’s for several years now and I can confirm firsthand that Joel and his team are quick to resolve issues and answer any questions.
You’re in good hands
The Story Ideas Virtuoso // Apr 17, 2008 at 9:08 am
Anyone know when the first subscription payment kicks in? Is it 30 days?
I need to send myself a TweetLater to remind myself to cancel (and where).
Deb
Chris Jacobson // Apr 17, 2008 at 5:05 pm
I bought a copy last night and just noticed an e-mail in my inbox from Joel stating that Lynn was among the top sellers. Nice work!
Lynn Terry // Apr 17, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Thank you, Chris
Jeff Jones // Apr 17, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Lynn,
I got bit by this one apparently as well and I do agree it should be made more plain.
Like you, I refused upsells and thought that was that.
Unlike you, I DID read the email that came after and I only saw that I would have an opportunity to do this or that and not that I HAD BEEN SIGNED UP for anything.
I’m sure I’ll get my money’s worth out of Adsense Secrets but I will be canceling the newsletter and anything else I can finally figure out I’ve been enrolled in.
Jeff
Joel // Apr 18, 2008 at 12:03 am
Always time to cancel after you check out the freebie, Jeff. I promise you will not regret it. And you see how accessible I am. You won’t have a problem cancelling if you decide to.
Joel
Mary Gallagher // Apr 18, 2008 at 12:32 am
Glad the discussion came up about this. I too just hit the buy button knowing I was getting quality, with Joel as author and Lynn recommending.
Financial bleeding due to subscriptions I have not utilized to best advantage is something I used to do. I have become diligent in either using or cancelling those subs that I pay for monthly and do not use to immediate advantage.
My main goal is to learn, network and utilize what will bring a significant roi, either now or in the near future, for what I wish to do in my home based business.
I know I will not be disappointed, considering the quality content. I also know that I will keep a pulse on when and whether cancellation is an option.
Thanks for the clarification, Lynn, Joel, and the good comments from everyone.
Best,
Mary
Dennis Edell // Apr 18, 2008 at 6:43 am
Is there a way to cancel BEFORE the 1st issue arrives? Just so I don’t forget.
I can always order it again later, right?
Jeff Jones // Apr 18, 2008 at 8:51 am
@Joel,
I am still going through my emails from you to find where it says that I have anything else coming to me and I still can’t find it.
I know you produce top-notch stuff and I’ll be sure to give it a full review before I cancel.
I also know you stand behind your stuff and have issues with internet marketers who get too big for their own good.
Thanks for replying,
Jeff
Terra // Apr 18, 2008 at 8:58 am
When I received notification, I jumped on it, but I read the terms all the way through. I’ve been following Joel and Lynn. I trust Lynn and was surprised she hadn’t said anything. However I knew this was a referall and to check it out for myself. Joel made it very clear before I hit the buy button, that I was getting the newsletter for $29.95 a month and can cancel anytime.
-I appreciate Lynn sending out a notice, giving a heads up that she missed it. That’s why I know I can trust her.
Terra
Joel // Apr 18, 2008 at 9:03 am
When the freebie arrives, there will be a note telling you exactly how to cancel if you don’t want more. I and my team believe that most people are going to want more.
Lynn Terry // Apr 18, 2008 at 9:04 am
Thank you Terra - I appreciate your taking the time to post your thoughts here, and your kind words regarding my intentions.
I’m looking forward to The Top 1% report, now that I realize I’m subscribed to it
, but sent that email to clear up any confusion on that as soon as I realized there was some concern.
Lynn Terry // Apr 18, 2008 at 9:09 am
For those of you that missed the email I sent out last night, you can find it archived online here.
Lynn Terry // Apr 18, 2008 at 9:29 am
Looking forward to it, Joel
Thx!
Dennis Edell // Apr 18, 2008 at 9:42 am
I know I want it, just don’t know I can afford it. i do know i can’t afford to have it taken by surprise (if that makes sense), so thank you for clearing that up.
Dennis Edell // Apr 18, 2008 at 9:43 am
For some reason my “I’s” don’t like to be capitalized, sorry about the sloppy lol.
Lynn Terry // Apr 18, 2008 at 9:56 am
Take the plunge: http://www.adsense-guide.com/
For less than ten bucks you get to taste-test the controversial bonus and cancel before the billing starts if it doesnt suit your ‘buds
Dennis Edell // Apr 18, 2008 at 10:17 am
I bought the book. I was referring to the $30 newsletter
Dezzy // Apr 18, 2008 at 10:40 am
I bought the book, I live in Jamaica. I am pretty sure it will take a long time to get here,if it does.
My question to Joel is, do you know when I get the book?
So basically what I want to know is, will I be charged within a 30 day period of purchase?
Lynn Terry // Apr 18, 2008 at 10:44 am
The ebook is an instant download that you recieve immediately after making payment online. If you didnt get the follow-up email with your download link, submit a ticket at: http://www.thehelpdesk.us/
The bonus “top 1%” report and cd is what is coming in the mail as a physical shipment - and it should arrive well before the billing kicks in.
Dezzy // Apr 18, 2008 at 10:47 am
Already received the ebook, I am just worried about the 1% report not arriving in time.
Lets hope it does!
Cynthia // Apr 18, 2008 at 11:18 am
Thank you for the heads up on this Lynn.
No, I did not realize that I had signed up for a continuity program and I’m not very happy about it.
I would not have made the purchase if I had. I don’t want a 30 day trial to anything, regardless of how great it might be. I just wanted a book.
Yes, it is absolutely my fault. I did not pay attention or read anything on the page. I usually don’t make purchases in that manner and always watch out for this kind of thing. I trust Lynn, so when she recommended it, I just went and bought the product without paying attention. I went straight to the Buy Now button without reading. I’m not blaming you, Lynn. I understand it is not your fault. You were not aware ahead of time. I also thought that Joel Comm had a good reputation so I didn’t think I had to worry about anything.
I did, however, look over my email receipt quite thoroughly and there was no mention in there at all that I had subscribed to a newsletter. There was also no mention of this subscription to the newsletter on the actual order page. It most definitely should have been in both of those places.
The issue is not whether Joel provides high quality material. The issue is the matter of “forced continuity.”
In my opinion, no matter how you cut it, “forced continuity” is not a direct and upfront method of marketing. Its success lies in manipulating people and taking advantage of human nature. Marketers know that most people don’t pay attention when they’re placing an order. It’s very easy to rake in a bunch of unsuspecting subscribers. Marketers also know that most people forget to cancel their subscription after a free trial and again an easy way to rake in more.
I was not a repeat customer. I was a first time customer, but I will be a last time customer, because I don’t do business with people who use forced continuity.
I think it is disappointing when internet marketers feel they have to take this route.
Mitch // Apr 18, 2008 at 11:35 am
I’m glad you made this clarification to everyone else, Lynn. I got caught with a different promotion where I hadn’t read everything fully, and it was a couple of months later when I picked up on it, so I knew to look for it this time around.
Joel Comm // Apr 18, 2008 at 11:51 am
This is not correct, Cynthia.
On the sales page, it says…
“If after the free report you decide it’s not worth ten times the subscription cost (which won’t happen because you will be blown away by the content in this report!), simply contact us and cancel your subscription at any time! Otherwise, you may continue to be in the Top 1% for the discount rate of just $29.95 every 30 days. Wait until you see the bonus that comes with your first edition!”
When you click the buy link, it says this on the ORDER page…
“Please send me a copy of your “Top 1% Report” as stated and do not bill me for the first issue! If I don’t like it, I will call you and let you know. But if it is as valuable as I anticipate, please keep sending it for the discount price of just $29.95 per month.”
It’s very clear twice.
Joel
Joel Comm // Apr 18, 2008 at 11:53 am
One more thing…
It will not be possible to “forget” you are in the program. We are mailing a PHYSICAL product that will have a very conspicuous note telling you exactly what is taking place and how to cease your subscription if you want. Totally up front and above board.
Joel
Dr.Mani // Apr 18, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Who else thinks forcing continuity on a BONUS - NOT on the product itself - is not quite ‘playing the game’! I call ‘Foul’.
Whether its ‘easy to cancel’ or not is beside the point, imho.
I blogged about it in greater detail. The title is deliberately provocative:
“Forced Continuity - Great Concept, Stupid Implementation”
All success
Dr.Mani
Carrie Wigal // Apr 18, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Admittedly, I did not get the book because I saw the forced subscription, and I wasn’t interested in paying an additional $30 a month for anything (I’m sure it’s great quality stuff, but that’s not what I was wanting when I went to get the Adsense Secrets book). I figured Lynn didn’t realize this was part of the deal when she sent her initial email promoting this $9.95 ebook otherwise I’m sure she would have mentioned it upfront.
I was pre-sold on the book, so I didn’t bother reading the sales page and went right to the order button…that’s where I noticed the additional charge/subscription. While the salesletter and order page may have been clearly marked regarding this bonus subscription, I didn’t like the way the book was offered for sale. It’s one thing to offer a “really great value” for only $9.95 (which I’m sure the ebook is), it’s another to offer a “really great value for only $9.95 plus a $29.95/mo subscription”. I would much rather have been offered the ebook for $9.95 and then received another offer later for the subscription.
Consider this comment merely feedback on one previous Joel Comm customer’s experience.
Joel Comm // Apr 18, 2008 at 2:15 pm
If you go to the cart and click CANCEL, it will provide you with an opportunity to buy the book only.
Joel
Jeff Mills // Apr 18, 2008 at 4:01 pm
I don’t understand why people are beating up Joel for trying to help people become successful.
The reason people don’t like forced continuity is that they don’t want to be successful and have financial accountability.
Try it… see it you like it… it’s funny to see people say… I need to set up my reminders so I can cancel before the day… gimme a break, you have not even seen his product yet…
But people will gladly spend $3.95-$10 a day for a cup of bean juice.
They will spend $29 a month for a DVD rental company.
They’ll spend $30 for a magazine subscription they never use.
Joel is offering great content. If you use it, I don’t think you’ll be caring about the $29 fee cause you’ll be making much more than that with implementation of the ideas and soon you be asking Joel for his back issues so you can get more ideas to increase your business results.
The bottom line is… people don’t want to pay to be successful and people are afraid of accountablility. And a $29 bill after reading two incredible newsletters is not that high of a charge to swallow, unless you are just information libraries that store content and never take it off the shelf.
It’s win/win for both parties.
Joel gets more backend
Comsumer gets money making ideas if implemented.
I think Joel should be charging $197 a month for his stuff like most marketers do.
Jeff
http://www.outsourcecompendium.com
Lynn Terry // Apr 18, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Hi Jeff,
I dont doubt that the Top 1% report will be high quality material, and I dont think anyone here is beyond spending ~$30/month towards their business success.
Not true. And I dont appreciate the insult to ClickNewz readers. The reason for the controversy is because the subscription wasnt advertised, and the incredibly low price of the product that *was* advertised created an unusually high conversion rate - a high percentage of which I would guess were presold and caught unaware that they were agreeing to the recurring subscription at 3x the price per month that they believed they were paying for the product 1x.
The cost is not the issue. The fact that it wasnt an option… is. And for ClickNewz readers specifically, I am the one that sent them an email without clear details (because I completely missed them myself). Which I later cleared up in a second email - all of which is outlined above.
Had I reviewed and recommended the Top 1% report at $30/mo, it would have likely sold just as well as the 9.95 ebook. So be clear on the facts. The controversy is not about the cost, its a matter of principle.
Best,
Lynn Terry
ClickNewz.com
The Story Ideas Virtuoso // Apr 18, 2008 at 5:44 pm
@Joel
I hate to burst your bubble, but most of us don’t have time to hang on every word of a sales or buy page anymore. You can plead, “Caveat Emptor,” but the fact remains, you could have done this differently.
Did you seriously believe people would read every word at the top of your shopping cart page? It’s invisible real estate. It passes for a logo or a header, especially the way you have it set up. If you were being as transparent as you claim, the reader’s eye would not travel from “Yes Joel” (in bold red) to “I am ready to take action” (in yellow highlight) and skipping down to the next yellow highlighted phrase in bold and larger type (after the paragraph about the newsletter) : “I am ready to get started,” completely bypassing the information about your continuity program.
Look at it yourself and see if your eye doesn’t glide right past that important paragraph. You KNOW people skim. That’s why sales copy is structured to make the eye stop in certain places. Put those stop signs too close together and people jump from one directly to the next.
I know you’re this big guru with your own reality show online that everyone is buzzing about. You had power and control over the fate of those participants. And you operate a multi-million dollar business. So it can’t be easy taking grief from a bunch of us “little people” telling you things you don’t want to hear.
But you know what? We’re your buying public and we’ve been telling you something important that you’re not really hearing. Instead you’re arguing, explaining and defending your position.
I get that you’re feeling defensive. I would, too, in your place. But it’s not about you. Sorry. It’s ALL about your customers. You’re not looking at this through our eyes, you’re looking at it through your own. I’ll bet you even teach this, but you’re not practicing it here.
You’re telling us stuff like how clear your sales copy is so it’s our fault we didn’t know. And how much value we’re going to get because you only deliver quality and we’ll get something in the mail so we will know exactly when our 30 days are up. That is sales propaganda, pure and simple, regardless of how true it is. And it presupposes that this is about you caring so much about us as customers that you want to “get this newsletter in our hands.”
Nice try. This is about FORCING us to have to cancel to get out of something we didn’t ask for to begin with and might not be able to afford.
I wonder how many of us were pre-sold just because it was your product, the price was right, and Lynn recommended it? You made it easy for us to skip the sales letter by putting 4 BUY NOW links before you even got to the price and bonuses. One is at the top right under your video. If we skipped the sales letter, why would we want to read MORE salesy copy on the next page, when all we want is to finish our transaction and download our product?
Here are some suggestions for how to correct this:
Put the newsletter on its own line in the shopping cart, under the ebook. In parentheses, IN BOLD PRINT, say ($29.95 monthly after 30 days - cancel any time) and $0.00 in the Total box. I have seen this done and appreciated the reminder at the point of purchase.
In addition, make a checkbox people must mark that says, “I understand I will receive a free print issue of The Top 1% newsletter and after 30 days I will automatically be billed for subsequent monthly issues, unless I cancel within 30 days of receiving my first issue.” Without marking that box, the transaction would not go through.
Or, gee, how about treating us with some respect and ASKING us if we want the print newsletter? Give us a checkbox to mark that says something like,
“No thanks, I’ll pass on getting the free print newsletter. I know I’m probably making the biggest mistake of my internet career, and people will laugh at me for my stupidity for decades, but just let me make my blankety-blank purchase already and download the product I came here to buy.”
Joel, you can tout your reputation and track record as reason enough for us to wait and see about your newsletter. It was that reputation and track record that attracted us to buy.
But the fact is, a forced continuity program is ONLY good from the seller’s viewpoint, NEVER the buyer’s. I don’t care what kind of quality you deliver. The bottom line is, this model says, “If you want my product X, you have do Y and on MY terms.”
Book clubs, collectible memberships, add-on credit card services and other businesses use this model SPECIFICALLY because people are inclined to “do nothing and every month we’ll automatically bill you…” Don’t tell us you’re not counting on people forgetting until after the 30 days are up, because otherwise, you would have used another business model.
The last thing I want to do is rile someone of your stature. But I can’t emphasize enough that in these comments on Lynn’s blog you’re getting some of the most valuable customer feedback you’ve ever had.
We’re not taking potshots at a “big dog.” We’re trying to make you understand that FORCED CONTINUITY IS WRONG. We expect this from predatory business owners, NOT marketers we trust.
Your customers are being courageous in telling you the unvarnished truth, not just telling you how wonderful you are. Do you have the ears to listen, then to hear and finally to admit you were wrong? Or has mega success clouded your judgment and given you feet of clay?
Still a loyal fan, but not nearly as loyal as before,
Deb Gallardo
Joel // Apr 18, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Hey Deb,
Very valuable feedback, indeed!
I’m nothing if not teachable and I hear every word you are saying. I don’t pretend to know everything. In fact, the older I get the more I realize I don’t know. (Just ask my wife… she can confirm this…)
I haven’t brought up one of the issues we dealt with until now because I didn’t want to put any of the blame elsewhere.
The shopping cart we are using has made it incredibly difficult for us to proceed with the order process as we intended.
Originally, we had two line items for the order as you suggested. One is the ebook, the other is the newsletter. That makes it even clearer that there are two items involved here and the customer could then set the report to zero quantity if they wanted to opt out from the beginning.
Well, one hour before launch we could NOT get it working right. It was extremely frustrating and we were forced to combine the ebook and the report into one product. Definitely not the preferred method for a number of reasons, not the least of which are the issues you state.
If you look at the page now, you’ll see that there are two line items as originally intended, though we had to come up with a workaround to get it set as we wanted. There is still a problem with the cart functioning as it should. Don’t get wrong, it is secure and orders are processing safely, but getting the cart to do some important redirecting to pages has been agonizing.
You can check the link here and I’m thrilled to say that things are exactly as they should be.
http://www.1shoppingcart.com/app/netcart.asp?MerchantID=71064&offerid=37141&q=2
I have learned from this experience for sure. Thanks so much for taking the time to write such an elegant piece. I am going to print it out and pass it around my office because I think you speak clearly for the customer. And you are the reason that I am in business.
And as a side issue, I can’t wait until someone makes a shopping cart that does everything we need it to do. You wouldn’t believe the headaches we’ve had with our current system for nearly three years now. You may ask, why don’t I go somewhere else? All my affiliates are in the current system. All my products are linked to in this system. And frankly, I haven’t found a better option… Sigh…
Thanks again for your post, Deb. I appreciate you and your thoughts very much.
Humbly,
Joel
Jeff Mills // Apr 18, 2008 at 6:18 pm
@ Lynn… Point taken, probably a bad generalization.
I see exactly what you are saying… the issue is not the content or price, it is just if people are aware of it or not and Joel is addressing it.
people should be happy now.
J
Sandy Naidu // Apr 18, 2008 at 6:19 pm
I have just bought the ebook…Three cheers to Deb for her excellent comments…
Sandy
I’m Just Sharing » Blog Archive » Even The Big Time Marketers Make Mistakes Sometimes // Apr 18, 2008 at 6:24 pm
[...] this very thing, which she indicates that she herself had missed. And she had a link to her blog so that we could all read more about it. I decided to go there, and saw how some people had [...]
The Story Ideas Virtuoso // Apr 18, 2008 at 6:25 pm
@Joel,
Well you certainly went up about 10,000% in my estimation, and not just because you listened to me! LOL! It takes a real man to admit what you did and I am HONORED, yes, HONORED that you would respond to me personally. I am also humbled.
And thrilled out of my mind that Joel Comm talked to me! Aaaaaaa!!
Okay, breathing normally now. I think. *fanning self*
All kidding aside, thank you for listening. It means more than you will know. I feel like Rosemary Clooney when she put that knight on the white horse into Bing Crosby’s Santa gift bag.
(Those of you who haven’t seen “White Christmas” every December for the past 40 years won’t get this.)
Suffice it to say that, as far as I am concerned, Joel,
You are the MAN!
And I’m your biggest fan!
Sheesh! I can’t keep from rhyming, guys! Look out. I feel another IM bedtime story coming on.
“There once was an IM named Joel…”
Deb Gallardo
Joel // Apr 18, 2008 at 6:26 pm
One more thing for Deb… you said.. “The last thing I want to do is rile someone of your stature”
Deb, I’m just a guy. I’m not better than you or anyone else. No pedestals, please.
And I don’t rile easily. I just pout.
Joel
Joel // Apr 18, 2008 at 6:44 pm
LOL.. I didn’t see your post until after I posted mine, Deb. You made the White Christmas reference where the Knight in armor was put on a pedestal! Oh, that’s too funny…
If you ever go to a conference I am at, please come up and say hello. Would love to meet you. Of course, that goes for anyone here.
Joel
Al Smith // Apr 18, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Hi Lynn,
To tell you the truth I passed on this offer 1st time around because of the newsletter offer. I thought it was a tad unethical, but many people are turning to marketing tricks these days.
And, I was a bit disappointed that you (Lynn) would recommend such a product without fully investigating how the offer worked. (I know you got tripped up yourself)
I am glad that you send out another email explaining what was going on, and the ensuing conversation on the blog.
Because everybody has been so open about this, I have just purchased the Adsense guide and have taken the newsletter option also.
I will wait with much anticipation to see if all this hype is justified. I hope it is.
$30.00 is not much of an investment if the value is there so I will love to see how it plays out.
I am again a happy camper . . .
Al Smith
Lynn Terry // Apr 18, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Thank you, Al - I appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt. I generally always disclose full detail as you know.
I’m sure we’ll all be back again soon to discuss the report in hand - looking forward to it!
Al Smith // Apr 18, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Hi Lynn,
Just a kudo for you . . .
After almost five years on the web, even with all the email flying around these days, yours is always welcomed and read first.
And the same goes for your blog, I always love to see a new post in my RSS reader from you.
It certainly is a pleasure to do business with you and your company. Thanks for all you do.
Al Smith
Lynn Terry // Apr 18, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Thank you Al - that means a lot!
Dr.Mani // Apr 18, 2008 at 8:16 pm
@JeffMills - Lynn is right. I was insulted at the insinuations in your
message:
“I don’t understand why people are beating up Joel for trying to help people become successful.
The reason people don’t like forced continuity is that they don’t want to be successful and have financial accountability.”
First, no one was ‘beating up Joel’ - constructive criticism is something only good friends and loyal fans of a hero can provide. From a stranger, it’s brickbats. From a friend, it is FEEDBACK. Joel knows that. It’s why I’m his fan!
Second, I LOVE forced continuity. I currently am set up for hundreds of dollars in rebilling for content and coaching that makes me better in many things. I can have this set up without having to worry about renewing every month.
And yes, it does hold one accountable - because if you watch cash going out, and aren’t making good use of what you get in exchange, you’re under pressure.
Which is exactly why I think longer and harder before committing myself to a forced continuity situation. Quite a different kettle of fish from a low-priced front-end ebook purchase. I’d do that in a snap - even if there were a series of upsells, because I can ignore them.
The point of this entire debate is whether putting that ‘forced continuity’ into Bonus #3, where some (many?) people might easily overlook it in their eagerness to grab a discounted high value ebook, is correct at all.
If you want to sell me on a ‘forced continuity’ product or service, MAKE IT A SEPARATE OFFER. Don’t try and sneak it into a discount deal - especially when the subscription is THREE TIMES as expensive as the discounted ebook!
The other point is whether a high-profile marketer like Joel doing it might open the door to even more wider abuse of what is in essence an unpopular implementation of a powerful strategy.
@JeffMills said:
“And a $29 bill after reading two incredible newsletters is not that high of a charge to swallow…”
Tell that to the family in India who is surviving on $200 a month or less!
Costs are relative. And in case you’re wondering, yes, there are MILLIONS of families in India at this income level who do use computers and the Internet to try and find a better way to reach for their dreams. It’s a wide world out there!
However, I agree with you when you say “I think Joel should be charging $197 a month for his stuff…” - and appreciate the fact he offers discounted prices to make his products more widely available.
All success
Dr.Mani
Bill Alland // Apr 18, 2008 at 8:22 pm
To be blunt, Forced Continuity is simply a trick to get more money from people. Joel Comm should be ashamed. He doesn’t have to use such tactics and shouldn’t. People deserve to know up front what costs are attached to a purchase. Otherwise it’s deceptive and underhanded. I’m sure the newsletter, in this case, is worth the monthly expense. But let me decide when I buy whether I want it or not.
Jeff Mills // Apr 18, 2008 at 8:28 pm
I am learning a lot from this comment thread… good insights from all.
Maybe we should come up with a new term.
“Optional Continuity” - who wants to split test it?
You click the box if you want it, you leave it blank to pass on it.
Good thoughts by all.
Jeff
Mitch // Apr 18, 2008 at 10:00 pm
First, I’m glad Joel has corrected this issue. Second, I’m left to wonder whether there are some moles out there looking for people who might be complaining in other places, as I just had someone come to my blog and basically deride me for not reading everything when I happened to write on this particular topic. I mean, with all the people who wrote here in agreement with the original perception, I just found it interesting that one of the defenders comes to my blog to chastise me, yet didn’t decide to also comment here. I’m not much into conspiracy theories, and yet,…
Lynn Terry // Apr 18, 2008 at 11:26 pm
I’m not sure I follow you, Mitch. Perhaps the person who left the comment wasnt aware of this post here at ClickNewz, and was just leaving their ‘2c’ - very likely. I wouldnt take it to mean more than was written.
Mitch // Apr 18, 2008 at 11:40 pm
You might be right, Lynn, but if so, man, what a coincidence. lol
Stan // Apr 19, 2008 at 2:46 am
I bought the ebook without reading any of the copy, based on Joel’s and Lynn’s reputation.
I was wondering why I couldn’t just pay with PayPal as usual. I guess it would have been clearer about the subscription part.
Funny it took me a few days to realize there was this big discussion going on about it. I will check out the first report and then decide if I have a budget for it.
Anyway it was an interesting learning experience about copywriting and sales letters. There is a reason Joel is a famous marketer
Thanks for the followup Lynn
Joel Bomane // Apr 19, 2008 at 8:35 am
Excellent post Deb Gallardo:-)
“Joel, You are very blessed to have so many
good friends and critics…taking extreme
care and diligence to send you a message …
So we hope you’ll listen to your Market”
Lynn Terry it’s a real pleasure to see
so many posts showing that costumers
are alive and well, even in Europe and Asia…
(seasons pro online marketers and newbies)…
Jeff, please do not underestimate
buyers intelligence worldwide.
“It takes many good deeds to build a good reputation, and only one bad one to lose it”
Benjamin Franklin
Fiat Lux
Cordialement
Joel Bomane from Sunny Sudden France
Jeff Jones // Apr 19, 2008 at 8:38 am
Lynn,
Thanks for having a reputation where individuals called on the carpet for their actions feel they need to respond and that they will get a fair chance to defend themselves.
@debgallardo,
Thank you for voicing my thoughts and those of most of the people who were “caught” by this oversight. I was away yesterday and caught this thread at 2 AM.
Thanks also for presenting those thoughts in a logical, non-emotional and well-written argument. I know how hard it is to do when you feel like you’ve been duped and the perpetrator is not hearing your plea.
@dr mani,
Thank you for bringing the whole “only $29.95 per month” clause into much needed perspective.
Finally…
@Joel,
Thank you for admitting that you made a mistake and thereby showing that you ARE the kind of human and business owner worthy of our trust.
It’s not about fine print in sales letters or shopping cart problems. It’s a matter of trust,pure and simple.
I purchased a five dollar CD from Tellman Knudsen a while back only to find I had been enrolled in a $79.00/month club.
I’m sure he is a fine person and has helped many people but I have dropped every connection to him after it happened.
I would urge more people to act in this manner because forced continuity has got to go.
Jeff
Should Forced Continuity Be Banned? // Apr 19, 2008 at 11:01 am
[...] is a thread on the ClickNewz.com discussion area that has sparked some very heated debate on the subject of forced [...]
Alan // Apr 19, 2008 at 12:08 pm
These comments have been fascinating. I blogged about my disdain towards forced continuity back in September 2007 . That when I noticed a trend from A-list Internet marketers using this ploy.
It appears like they all met at a guru mastermind seminar somewhere to unleash FC to the IM niche. Okay, I’m being paranoid. But, even if done by “the book” I do not like anything that takes the choice out of my hands.
The way I look at these “special” deals or “free” CD’s is that there is forced continuity somewhere.
If it’s too good to be true - there is probably forced continuity to it!
I did gain respect from Joel for listening and changing the order process based on people’s concerns.
Deb - your post was awesome. You spoke perfectly for how a lot of us feel about forced continuity. Thanks.
The Story Ideas Virtuoso // Apr 19, 2008 at 12:58 pm
@ Dr. Mani,
You said something that I think needs to be explained, because people look up to you, so you need to make this clear:
“Second, I LOVE forced continuity. I currently am set up for hundreds of dollars in rebilling for content and coaching that makes me better in many things. I can have this set up without having to worry about renewing every month.”
Setting up auto-billing for membership sites and coaching is NOT NECESSARILY forced continuity. It depends if the initial purchase is another product, usually low-cost or free, and in order for customers to get this product, you REQUIRE membership in an ongoing program, whether or not the buyer wants it.
I doubt that’s the case with you. At least I hope it’s not.
Joel Comm made it clear that forcing people to subscribe to his print newsletter was never his original intent. It was a last-minute work-around due to shopping cart limitations just prior to launch. THAT’S ALL FIXED NOW, woohoo! Way to go Joel and staff.
My biggest beef is with the whole idea of Forced Continuity Programs - a trend among big name marketers that is truly troubling. That’s why so many of us are upset. The whole idea of forced continuity is, at best, a questionable business practice. It’s typically the model of predatory businesses.
Jeff Jones bought a $5 CD from Tellman Knudson, (who is certainly reputable, or WAS), and found himself enrolled in a $79 membership program. Matt Bacak’s $1 “I Got Ripped Off” launch this last week at first had a similar forced membership that Jeremy Gislason advised him not to continue.
Even Jim Edwards isn’t above (or is it beneath?) using a similar tactic. It pains me to even bring it up because I’ve been a loyal, avid subscriber of Jim’s since 1999. (He’s speaking at Big Seminar 11 next weekend in Atlanta - to register go here: http://generatorsoftware.com/pro/bs.php?422118/70 .) Jim’s an excellent writer, and those of you who know me realize that’s huge for me, being in the “writing biz.” After all, I read the phenomenal Lynn Terry, don’t I?
So it’s killing me to even mention something negative about Jim.
This past year he conducted some interviews, access to which he charged only $1. Tied to that purchase, however, was a mandatory membership with a $97 recurring price tag (first month free), in order to access the interview WITHIN the member site.
Not only that, but if you canceled, you could NEVER re-subscribe. And when Jim says “never” he means “never.” He’s the tell-it-like-it-is guy.
So I had to pass up those interviews, because I hope someday to actually be making money online instead of just making comments on someone else’s marketing blog. *sigh* And then I can afford Jim’s awesome Net Reporter membership “vault” and Joel’s Top 1% newsletter and so many other memberships, tools, products and especially SEMINARS that are just not in my reach right now.
Dr. Mani, I know India is a poor country, but $200 goes a lot farther there than here. Last summer I lived on $120/month from my part-time job at a church. Yes, in the US.
I couldn’t pay every bill every month - not if I wanted to eat anyway. If my elderly mother had not opened her home to me, I would be living out of a cardboard box under an overpass, talking crazy to myself, and we wouldn’t be having this conversation. No exaggeration.
But don’t pity me. That’s not why I’m telling you this. 2008 is MY YEAR (I’ll share, so don’t anyone say I’ve stolen your year, LOL). I can feel it down to the depths of my being that I’m really close to success — so close I can almost taste it. Since I’m not intimately acquainted with success, I don’t actually know what it tastes like, but I CAN smell it, and it’s sweet.
I hope this clears up the final mystery in this lively discussion, courtesy of the incomparable Lynn Terry. I for one have thoroughly enjoyed it. To say it has been “stimulating” would be an understatement.
Deb Gallardo
P.S. - Jeff Jones, who commented above, made an excellent post on this subject of forced continuity on his blog. Is this the start of another cross-blog conversation? Goody! I love those! Here’s the link: http://senjomarketing.com/should-forced-continuity-be-banned/
Lynn Terry // Apr 19, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Recurring income is a great thing. And I’m all for automated billing - particularly when it comes to my utilities, my hosting accounts, my memberships etc - its just easier to keep up with.
But I do like to know what I’m buying and what to expect - upfront. Unfortunately most infomercials have gone to the Forced Continuity model. You cant even buy exercise equipment anymore without being automatically enrolled in their “video a month club” or whatever - so you really have to watch the fine print and ask specific questions.
“Buyer Beware”
My advice: know what you’re buying, and keep an eye on your bank/cc statements.
I’m usually pretty good about this, but I totally missed it on this particular deal - which I think is the issue at hand. I wasnt the only one . In addition to the comments here I’ve received tons of email - some not so happy with me for not mentioning it initially.
I’m glad its been resolved. Thanks to everyone for the open discussion and for sharing your thoughts on the matter. And thank you Joel for stepping in and smoothing things out.
-Lynn
Creative Blog Writing - Speak From Your Heart, Don’t Vent Your Spleen | The Story Ideas Virtuoso // Apr 19, 2008 at 3:49 pm
[...] was already taking place on the subject of Forced Continuity. (See Lynn Terry’s excellent Clicknewz Blog AND Jeff Jones’ related post that clearly defines Forced Continuity at Senjo [...]
Karen // Apr 19, 2008 at 4:16 pm
I purchased Joel’s book the day Lynn sent out her email, and was very happy to get it at such a terrific price. I’m so happy that I read Lynn’s update, because like so many, I didn’t notice either that I was agreeing to a $29.95 monthly fee that would need to be canceled. I’m sure I will enjoy the “trial” month, but I just recently quit my full-time “day job” and no depend on my online business as my only source of income, so my budget is going to be very tight for a while! Thank you for letting us know Lynn… and thank you Joel for making things clearer for those that purchased later!
Karen
Michael J Pratt // Apr 19, 2008 at 5:04 pm
I read every comment and avoided all the pitfalls mentioned, bought the book and Have enjoyed reading so far. One observation ( I comment here because Joel doesn’t make it obvious on his site where to do so): Everything Joel speaks of makes sense (if not a little late night infomercial-ly) but when I go to his sites I see those uber-cheesy neon flashing ads telling me I have won something or to check my inbox. I’m sure all intentions are honorable but I can’t help but be extremely leery when I see stuff like that. I would have thought he was above those kinds of ads
Alan // Apr 19, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Too bad folks got upset with you Lynn. You like many, many others simply didn’t noticed the forced continuity- that’s how it’s supposed to work -
The way you handled it after finding out with your follow up emails and the comments here is top class like everything you always do/recommend.
Heck, you have a huge hand at getting Joel to change his order process so others can have a much better ordering experiences so kudos to you and your readers who commented here.
I would hope people would give you the benefit of the doubt. You certainly deserve and have earned that in my book.
Carol Fentiman // Apr 19, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Lynn
I can certainly understand why people would be upset at being force into a membership that they do not want. I did not order this book because there was no option to pay through Paypal. Now I am having second thoughts about ordering this book even if it is offered through Paypal. Certainly Joel Comm has been very successful with Adsense but he is not the only one who has been successful with Adsense. All I need to do is use the search engines. Lynn, I believe that you are doing everything you can to help people and certainly look forward to your continuing help in the future.
Katherine Reschke // Apr 19, 2008 at 11:51 pm
I loved reading this whole comment thread and thought that it was a wonderfully objective lesson in honesty. Why I (and many others) follow you Lynn is not because you pretend to be perfect but that you are utterly transparent with your readers. When you discovered your mistake, you fessed up in plenty of time for people to be able to cancel the program. Deb Gallardo wrote with courageous honesty and beautiful eloquence about her views on the whole matter. And lastly Joel Comm has changed his shopping cart to be transparent and honest. All in all a most satisfying outcome.
Lynn Terry // Apr 20, 2008 at 12:08 am
I agree Katherine, and thank you for the kind words - much appreciated
Sandy Naidu // Apr 20, 2008 at 1:48 am
Loving this comment thread…If you haven’t already seen, check this out - http://www.adsense-secrets.com/apology.html
- Deb’s comment obviously has had a huge impact on Joel…
Dr.Mani // Apr 20, 2008 at 10:04 am
@ The Story Ideas Virtuoso
“Setting up auto-billing for membership sites and coaching is NOT NECESSARILY forced continuity.”
You’re right, it was my mistake. I meant to say “I love automated recurring billing”, and NOT ‘forced continuity’.
The convenience of having my account billed for each monthly installment of products and services I want - and KNOWINGLY signed up to continue receiving - is what I said I enjoyed.
Thanks for highlighting that point, Deb
btw, nice post. And I’m sure success WILL be yours soon.
All success
Dr.Mani
Dennis Edell // Apr 20, 2008 at 10:25 am
That apology page is an awesome sales letter lol.
Forced Continuity, Responsible Marketing & Buyer Beware: Both Sides of The Accountability Fence // Apr 20, 2008 at 11:33 am
[...] couple of examples include Dan Kennedy and Joel Comm. Both are online marketers that have spent years building a positive reputation for [...]
Lynn Terry // Apr 20, 2008 at 11:39 am
True it is, Dennis
This discussion begs the question: where does the responsibility lie - on the merchant, or on the buyer? See: http://www.clicknewz.com/1458/forced-continuity/
Creative Writing - the Power of Words | The Story Ideas Virtuoso // Apr 21, 2008 at 1:40 am
[...] the discussion at Lynn Terry’s blog continued, and I couldn’t just ignore the conversation. Something needed to be done or else all our commenting would be so much search engine fodder and [...]
Mary // Apr 21, 2008 at 5:24 am
What surprises me the most is that people ‘fall’ for the suck-up sorry page.
I actually was going to buy the book, but am staying well away now.
Lynn Terry // Apr 21, 2008 at 6:16 am
Hi Mary,
I placed my order within minutes of this product being released - well before the hooplah and the apology. So I’m curious about your perception, and why the apology page put you off?
Paul // Apr 21, 2008 at 6:35 am
The affiliates promoting Joel’s book need to take some of the heat as well. Not one of them mentioned the forced continuity until after it was called out by a purchaser.
What is (was) your monthly commission on the forced continuity Lynn?
Or did you (and Rosalind Gardner and others) miss that bit when you signed up as an affiliate?
Lynn Terry // Apr 21, 2008 at 7:00 am
Zero - that’s my commission on the recurring subscription that we are referring to here as the forced continuity. Joel’s affiliates dont earn anything on that.
I have been an affiliate of Joel’s for 4+ years now, and all affiliate links were redirected to the new page - so there were no screens to read through during sign-up or link creation. I understood affiliates to earn commission on the front-end sale, and on the back-end sale if there was one - period. The recurring subscription was not mentioned there either (that I recall).
I didnt even know I ’subscribed’ myself when I purchased the ebook.
And if you think I havent taken any heat, you should see the flames in my Inbox
The minute I realized there was an issue with the sale, I immediately sent out an email to my readers to make sure that that they knew the full details. I also hosted and encouraged this open discussion. I did take personal responsibility for promoting it as a 9.95 product, and still do…
ShriNagesh // Apr 21, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Lol:: sure i skipped to read a lot of interesting comments here.
@deb “I know India is a poor country”
Sorry deb, I reckon ‘developing country’ would be apt.
@dr mani. “Millions of people are surviving on $200″.
India provides extensive range of options for people from all walks of lives. Families with $200 income are not just ’surviving’ but are able to make a comfortable (if not luxurious) living with that amount. Lets start to project India in its avant-garde image rather than the 300 yr old ‘poor country’ stamp.
I’ve lived in India, US and Tanzania and travelled multiple times to middle east & europe. I’ve seen the extremes of economic distinctions. In 8 yrs of vagrant life (not really
), I learnt to ‘respect people irrespective of what and who they are’ and ‘value money’.
The money that could buy a pizza in the US, can buy a month’s food for a family of 5 in Africa.
Coming to the original point: Joel won over me with his new sales page, especially with the promise about donating to hearts and hands. I went for the book straight away + subscribed for the top 1% report (convinced that i’d b able to unsubscribe if the trial newsletter takes 5 or 6 months to reach me in Africa..).
Its apparent that Joel is aiming at monthly subscribers rather than a ‘one-time’ purchaser. After all this hullabaloo, he will have to work harder than ever and release a “greater than exceptional newsletter”. I can’t wait to get my hands on the 1st edition. Not sure if i’d be able to continue subscription though, unless he decides to release a downloadable version for folks like me.
How many are you pre-sold for continuing the subscription? I’m sure Info Media Inc. would love to do a statistical analysis on this.
Bottom Line: “Mistakes are human”. No blame on Joel, Lynn, deb, dr mani for what I mentioned in the post. AND ME (If I offended any one. Dont beat me up
Success to all
Shri
The Story Ideas Virtuoso // Apr 21, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Lynn,
I know you’re taking heat over this, but it truly upsets me that people are flaming you because you fell prey to the same eye-sliding and skimming they themselves did.
A comment on my blog today mentions that none of Joel’s follow-up emails mentions the newsletterl. Joel, what about that? Is it possible that fell through the cracks? I checked mine, too and nothing is mentioned in the affiliate “stuff,” either. (”Stuff” is a highly technical term LOL.)
Deb
Hendra // Apr 22, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Hi Lynn, i can see great discussion here about Joel. This discussion make me curious to know about Joel and his product
I never heard about him before, since i have just start learning about online business three months ago.
I am interested buying Joel’s adsense ebook, but i can’t go through your link.
I think there must be something with my IP being banned from purchasing through shoppingcart? (I use dial up network)
This is the error i got :
“Unable to connect
Firefox can’t establish a connection to the server at http://www.1shoppingcart.com.
* The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in a few moments.
* If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer’s network connection.
* If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure that Firefox is permitted to access the Web.”
I did try go straight to the site, i load normally. But it goes to error page every time i tried to pay.
I am desperate to buy Joel’s ebook, is there any way i can get through Joel’s book other that shooping cart?
Thanks Lynn
Lynn Terry // Apr 23, 2008 at 6:27 am
Not that I know of, but you can use the link at the very bottom of that page to contact Joel’s team through the support desk. They should be able to help you out
The Story Ideas Virtuoso // Apr 23, 2008 at 1:09 pm
@ Stan
@ Carol Fentiman
You can now use PayPal to buy Joel’s product. Open a support ticket and tell them that’s what you want to do and they say they’ll fix you up.
Joel just mentioned it 4/23/08 on his JoelCommLive show on:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/joel-comm-live Wednesdays at 1:00PM Eastern
Deb
Lynn Terry // Apr 23, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Very cool, however I worry that Joel is going to have another ’stir’ on his hands - but this time with his faithful affiliates. Both the apology page and the support desk bypass the affiliate - and both are being promoted heavily to pull in straggling sales…
Joel Comm // Apr 23, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Any affiliate that sent someone to the main page is already cookied, so they are getting credit for the sales.
There is no reason to cookie the support desk. No one goes there to buy.
As for paypal, we have to provide SOME sort of option for people who won’t buy through the regular means. We’ve had maybe 10 paypal sales in total.
Joel
Lynn Terry // Apr 23, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Good to know, Joel - thank you so much for clearing that up
Lynn Terry // Apr 28, 2008 at 6:51 am
Ran across a quote today that seemed suiting to share here…
“The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. ”
-Martin Luther King, Jr.
Dennis Edell // Apr 28, 2008 at 7:35 am
I think you just knighted him.
Ana // May 5, 2008 at 8:25 am
I too completely missed the forced-continuity part of Joel’s original sales page, and I absolutely hate that marketing ploy. I haven’t bought the ebook yet, and I’m not sure I’m going to. Deb’s comments were brilliant. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
I don’t bow down to gurus. When I’m considering buying an IM product from someone that big, I’m no longer impressed by how successful that marketer is, but how successful their *customers* have been. And I find myself wondering anew just how many of the hordes of customers of Joel’s have been successful themselves in the past few years.
Seems most that post are still struggling.
Stevie Knight // May 7, 2008 at 12:14 pm
I’ve been reading this thread with interest and some amusement. Lynn started an excellent discussion that will have long-lasting effects on the IM community, IMO. And that’s cool!
When Internet Marketers (like Joel Comm) take the time to read comments like these and adjust their practices to be more inline with customers’ and prospects’ expectations, it shows the increasing education and influence of today’s customers.
It also points up the fact that Internet Marketers are now being held accountable for their marketing practices and that they realize the power of the Internet to increase or decrease their own influence in the marketplace of ideas. That’s a good thing.
When good marketers navigate the murky waters of internet marketing, making some mistakes along the way but dealing with them with integrity, it elevates the entire industry.
Thanks Lynn. Thanks to all those who commented. And thanks very much to Joel Comm.
@ Ana Most people who buy courses, be they Joel’s or Anthony Robbins’, do little with them. The fact that most are still struggling says less about them than it does about people in general!
Knowledge is just knowledge. Correct implementation/action is what makes all the difference.
Internet Marketing Recap for May 2008 // Jun 2, 2008 at 10:14 am
[...] This 16-page magazine-style report + CD package was offered to those who purchased Joel’s Adsense Secrets during the April 2008 relaunch. The first recurring payment was billed on June [...]
Lynn Terry // Jun 2, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Those of you that ordered Adsense 4.0 should have received your complimentary copy of The Top 1% Report by now. I have published a full review of the report at http://www.clicknewz.com/1523/top-1-percent-review/ and would love for you to leave your comments on it there as well.
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