ClickNewz! Internet Marketing Blog
by Lynn Terry
Joel Comm just released Adsense 4.0, a long awaited update to his popular Adsense Secrets guide. Joel has had the #1 top-selling Adsense guide on the market for over 3 years now, which has sold for $97.
Today, you can get the latest edition for under ten bucks...
About Lynn TerryLynn Terry is a full-time Internet Marketer with over 17 years experience in online business. Subscribe to ClickNewz for the latest Internet Marketing trends & strategies, Lynn's unique case studies, creative marketing ideas, and candid reviews...more»
Lynn Terry is a Professional Blogger, Super Affiliate, and full-time Internet Marketer with over 18 years experience in online business. ClickNewz is where she shares creative marketing ideas and... more »
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Hi Lynn,
Just a kudo for you . . .
After almost five years on the web, even with all the email flying around these days, yours is always welcomed and read first.
And the same goes for your blog, I always love to see a new post in my RSS reader from you.
It certainly is a pleasure to do business with you and your company. Thanks for all you do.
Al Smith
Thank you Al - that means a lot!
@JeffMills - Lynn is right. I was insulted at the insinuations in your
message:
"I don't understand why people are beating up Joel for trying to help people become successful.
The reason people don't like forced continuity is that they don't want to be successful and have financial accountability."
First, no one was 'beating up Joel' - constructive criticism is something only good friends and loyal fans of a hero can provide. From a stranger, it's brickbats. From a friend, it is FEEDBACK. Joel knows that. It's why I'm his fan!
Second, I LOVE forced continuity. I currently am set up for hundreds of dollars in rebilling for content and coaching that makes me better in many things. I can have this set up without having to worry about renewing every month.
And yes, it does hold one accountable - because if you watch cash going out, and aren't making good use of what you get in exchange, you're under pressure.
Which is exactly why I think longer and harder before committing myself to a forced continuity situation. Quite a different kettle of fish from a low-priced front-end ebook purchase. I'd do that in a snap - even if there were a series of upsells, because I can ignore them.
The point of this entire debate is whether putting that 'forced continuity' into Bonus #3, where some (many?) people might easily overlook it in their eagerness to grab a discounted high value ebook, is correct at all.
If you want to sell me on a 'forced continuity' product or service, MAKE IT A SEPARATE OFFER. Don't try and sneak it into a discount deal - especially when the subscription is THREE TIMES as expensive as the discounted ebook!
The other point is whether a high-profile marketer like Joel doing it might open the door to even more wider abuse of what is in essence an unpopular implementation of a powerful strategy.
@JeffMills said:
"And a $29 bill after reading two incredible newsletters is not that high of a charge to swallow..."
Tell that to the family in India who is surviving on $200 a month or less!
Costs are relative. And in case you're wondering, yes, there are MILLIONS of families in India at this income level who do use computers and the Internet to try and find a better way to reach for their dreams. It's a wide world out there!
However, I agree with you when you say "I think Joel should be charging $197 a month for his stuff..." - and appreciate the fact he offers discounted prices to make his products more widely available. 🙂
All success
Dr.Mani
To be blunt, Forced Continuity is simply a trick to get more money from people. Joel Comm should be ashamed. He doesn't have to use such tactics and shouldn't. People deserve to know up front what costs are attached to a purchase. Otherwise it's deceptive and underhanded. I'm sure the newsletter, in this case, is worth the monthly expense. But let me decide when I buy whether I want it or not.
I am learning a lot from this comment thread... good insights from all.
Maybe we should come up with a new term.
"Optional Continuity" - who wants to split test it?
You click the box if you want it, you leave it blank to pass on it.
Good thoughts by all.
Jeff
First, I'm glad Joel has corrected this issue. Second, I'm left to wonder whether there are some moles out there looking for people who might be complaining in other places, as I just had someone come to my blog and basically deride me for not reading everything when I happened to write on this particular topic. I mean, with all the people who wrote here in agreement with the original perception, I just found it interesting that one of the defenders comes to my blog to chastise me, yet didn't decide to also comment here. I'm not much into conspiracy theories, and yet,...
I'm not sure I follow you, Mitch. Perhaps the person who left the comment wasnt aware of this post here at ClickNewz, and was just leaving their '2c' - very likely. I wouldnt take it to mean more than was written.
You might be right, Lynn, but if so, man, what a coincidence. lol
I bought the ebook without reading any of the copy, based on Joel's and Lynn's reputation.
I was wondering why I couldn't just pay with PayPal as usual. I guess it would have been clearer about the subscription part.
Funny it took me a few days to realize there was this big discussion going on about it. I will check out the first report and then decide if I have a budget for it.
Anyway it was an interesting learning experience about copywriting and sales letters. There is a reason Joel is a famous marketer 🙂
Thanks for the followup Lynn
Lynn,
Thanks for having a reputation where individuals called on the carpet for their actions feel they need to respond and that they will get a fair chance to defend themselves.
@debgallardo,
Thank you for voicing my thoughts and those of most of the people who were "caught" by this oversight. I was away yesterday and caught this thread at 2 AM.
Thanks also for presenting those thoughts in a logical, non-emotional and well-written argument. I know how hard it is to do when you feel like you've been duped and the perpetrator is not hearing your plea.
@dr mani,
Thank you for bringing the whole "only $29.95 per month" clause into much needed perspective.
Finally...
@Joel,
Thank you for admitting that you made a mistake and thereby showing that you ARE the kind of human and business owner worthy of our trust.
It's not about fine print in sales letters or shopping cart problems. It's a matter of trust,pure and simple.
I purchased a five dollar CD from Tellman Knudsen a while back only to find I had been enrolled in a $79.00/month club.
I'm sure he is a fine person and has helped many people but I have dropped every connection to him after it happened.
I would urge more people to act in this manner because forced continuity has got to go.
Jeff
Excellent post Deb Gallardo:-)
"Joel, You are very blessed to have so many
good friends and critics...taking extreme
care and diligence to send you a message ...
So we hope you'll listen to your Market"
Lynn Terry it's a real pleasure to see
so many posts showing that costumers
are alive and well, even in Europe and Asia...
(seasons pro online marketers and newbies)...
Jeff, please do not underestimate
buyers intelligence worldwide.
“It takes many good deeds to build a good reputation, and only one bad one to lose itâ€
Benjamin Franklin
Fiat Lux
Cordialement
Joel Bomane from Sunny Sudden France
These comments have been fascinating. I blogged about my disdain towards forced continuity back in September 2007 . That when I noticed a trend from A-list Internet marketers using this ploy.
It appears like they all met at a guru mastermind seminar somewhere to unleash FC to the IM niche. Okay, I'm being paranoid. But, even if done by "the book" I do not like anything that takes the choice out of my hands.
The way I look at these "special" deals or "free" CD's is that there is forced continuity somewhere.
If it's too good to be true - there is probably forced continuity to it!
I did gain respect from Joel for listening and changing the order process based on people's concerns.
Deb - your post was awesome. You spoke perfectly for how a lot of us feel about forced continuity. Thanks.
@ Dr. Mani,
You said something that I think needs to be explained, because people look up to you, so you need to make this clear:
"Second, I LOVE forced continuity. I currently am set up for hundreds of dollars in rebilling for content and coaching that makes me better in many things. I can have this set up without having to worry about renewing every month."
Setting up auto-billing for membership sites and coaching is NOT NECESSARILY forced continuity. It depends if the initial purchase is another product, usually low-cost or free, and in order for customers to get this product, you REQUIRE membership in an ongoing program, whether or not the buyer wants it.
I doubt that's the case with you. At least I hope it's not.
Joel Comm made it clear that forcing people to subscribe to his print newsletter was never his original intent. It was a last-minute work-around due to shopping cart limitations just prior to launch. THAT'S ALL FIXED NOW, woohoo! Way to go Joel and staff.
My biggest beef is with the whole idea of Forced Continuity Programs - a trend among big name marketers that is truly troubling. That's why so many of us are upset. The whole idea of forced continuity is, at best, a questionable business practice. It's typically the model of predatory businesses.
Jeff Jones bought a $5 CD from Tellman Knudson, (who is certainly reputable, or WAS), and found himself enrolled in a $79 membership program. Matt Bacak's $1 "I Got Ripped Off" launch this last week at first had a similar forced membership that Jeremy Gislason advised him not to continue.
Even Jim Edwards isn't above (or is it beneath?) using a similar tactic. It pains me to even bring it up because I've been a loyal, avid subscriber of Jim's since 1999. (He's speaking at Big Seminar 11 next weekend in Atlanta - to register go here: http://generatorsoftware.com/pro/bs.php?422118/70 .) Jim's an excellent writer, and those of you who know me realize that's huge for me, being in the "writing biz." After all, I read the phenomenal Lynn Terry, don't I?
So it's killing me to even mention something negative about Jim.
This past year he conducted some interviews, access to which he charged only $1. Tied to that purchase, however, was a mandatory membership with a $97 recurring price tag (first month free), in order to access the interview WITHIN the member site.
Not only that, but if you canceled, you could NEVER re-subscribe. And when Jim says "never" he means "never." He's the tell-it-like-it-is guy.
So I had to pass up those interviews, because I hope someday to actually be making money online instead of just making comments on someone else's marketing blog. *sigh* And then I can afford Jim's awesome Net Reporter membership "vault" and Joel's Top 1% newsletter and so many other memberships, tools, products and especially SEMINARS that are just not in my reach right now.
Dr. Mani, I know India is a poor country, but $200 goes a lot farther there than here. Last summer I lived on $120/month from my part-time job at a church. Yes, in the US.
I couldn't pay every bill every month - not if I wanted to eat anyway. If my elderly mother had not opened her home to me, I would be living out of a cardboard box under an overpass, talking crazy to myself, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. No exaggeration.
But don't pity me. That's not why I'm telling you this. 2008 is MY YEAR (I'll share, so don't anyone say I've stolen your year, LOL). I can feel it down to the depths of my being that I'm really close to success -- so close I can almost taste it. Since I'm not intimately acquainted with success, I don't actually know what it tastes like, but I CAN smell it, and it's sweet.
I hope this clears up the final mystery in this lively discussion, courtesy of the incomparable Lynn Terry. I for one have thoroughly enjoyed it. To say it has been "stimulating" would be an understatement.
Deb Gallardo
P.S. - Jeff Jones, who commented above, made an excellent post on this subject of forced continuity on his blog. Is this the start of another cross-blog conversation? Goody! I love those! Here's the link: http://senjomarketing.com/should-forced-continuity-be-banned/
Recurring income is a great thing. And I'm all for automated billing - particularly when it comes to my utilities, my hosting accounts, my memberships etc - its just easier to keep up with.
But I do like to know what I'm buying and what to expect - upfront. Unfortunately most infomercials have gone to the Forced Continuity model. You cant even buy exercise equipment anymore without being automatically enrolled in their "video a month club" or whatever - so you really have to watch the fine print and ask specific questions.
"Buyer Beware" 😉
My advice: know what you're buying, and keep an eye on your bank/cc statements.
I'm usually pretty good about this, but I totally missed it on this particular deal - which I think is the issue at hand. I wasnt the only one . In addition to the comments here I've received tons of email - some not so happy with me for not mentioning it initially.
I'm glad its been resolved. Thanks to everyone for the open discussion and for sharing your thoughts on the matter. And thank you Joel for stepping in and smoothing things out.
-Lynn
I purchased Joel's book the day Lynn sent out her email, and was very happy to get it at such a terrific price. I'm so happy that I read Lynn's update, because like so many, I didn't notice either that I was agreeing to a $29.95 monthly fee that would need to be canceled. I'm sure I will enjoy the "trial" month, but I just recently quit my full-time "day job" and no depend on my online business as my only source of income, so my budget is going to be very tight for a while! Thank you for letting us know Lynn... and thank you Joel for making things clearer for those that purchased later!
Karen
I read every comment and avoided all the pitfalls mentioned, bought the book and Have enjoyed reading so far. One observation ( I comment here because Joel doesn't make it obvious on his site where to do so): Everything Joel speaks of makes sense (if not a little late night infomercial-ly) but when I go to his sites I see those uber-cheesy neon flashing ads telling me I have won something or to check my inbox. I'm sure all intentions are honorable but I can't help but be extremely leery when I see stuff like that. I would have thought he was above those kinds of ads
Too bad folks got upset with you Lynn. You like many, many others simply didn't noticed the forced continuity- that's how it's supposed to work - 🙂
The way you handled it after finding out with your follow up emails and the comments here is top class like everything you always do/recommend.
Heck, you have a huge hand at getting Joel to change his order process so others can have a much better ordering experiences so kudos to you and your readers who commented here.
I would hope people would give you the benefit of the doubt. You certainly deserve and have earned that in my book.
Lynn
I can certainly understand why people would be upset at being force into a membership that they do not want. I did not order this book because there was no option to pay through Paypal. Now I am having second thoughts about ordering this book even if it is offered through Paypal. Certainly Joel Comm has been very successful with Adsense but he is not the only one who has been successful with Adsense. All I need to do is use the search engines. Lynn, I believe that you are doing everything you can to help people and certainly look forward to your continuing help in the future.
I loved reading this whole comment thread and thought that it was a wonderfully objective lesson in honesty. Why I (and many others) follow you Lynn is not because you pretend to be perfect but that you are utterly transparent with your readers. When you discovered your mistake, you fessed up in plenty of time for people to be able to cancel the program. Deb Gallardo wrote with courageous honesty and beautiful eloquence about her views on the whole matter. And lastly Joel Comm has changed his shopping cart to be transparent and honest. All in all a most satisfying outcome.
I agree Katherine, and thank you for the kind words - much appreciated 🙂
Loving this comment thread...If you haven't already seen, check this out - http://www.adsense-secrets.com/apology.html
- Deb's comment obviously has had a huge impact on Joel...
@ The Story Ideas Virtuoso
"Setting up auto-billing for membership sites and coaching is NOT NECESSARILY forced continuity."
You're right, it was my mistake. I meant to say "I love automated recurring billing", and NOT 'forced continuity'.
The convenience of having my account billed for each monthly installment of products and services I want - and KNOWINGLY signed up to continue receiving - is what I said I enjoyed.
Thanks for highlighting that point, Deb 🙂
btw, nice post. And I'm sure success WILL be yours soon.
All success
Dr.Mani
That apology page is an awesome sales letter lol.
True it is, Dennis 😉
This discussion begs the question: where does the responsibility lie - on the merchant, or on the buyer? See: http://www.clicknewz.com/1458/forced-continuity/
What surprises me the most is that people 'fall' for the suck-up sorry page.
I actually was going to buy the book, but am staying well away now.
Hi Mary,
I placed my order within minutes of this product being released - well before the hooplah and the apology. So I'm curious about your perception, and why the apology page put you off?
The affiliates promoting Joel's book need to take some of the heat as well. Not one of them mentioned the forced continuity until after it was called out by a purchaser.
What is (was) your monthly commission on the forced continuity Lynn?
Or did you (and Rosalind Gardner and others) miss that bit when you signed up as an affiliate?
Zero - that's my commission on the recurring subscription that we are referring to here as the forced continuity. Joel's affiliates dont earn anything on that.
I have been an affiliate of Joel's for 4+ years now, and all affiliate links were redirected to the new page - so there were no screens to read through during sign-up or link creation. I understood affiliates to earn commission on the front-end sale, and on the back-end sale if there was one - period. The recurring subscription was not mentioned there either (that I recall).
I didnt even know I 'subscribed' myself when I purchased the ebook.
And if you think I havent taken any heat, you should see the flames in my Inbox 😉
The minute I realized there was an issue with the sale, I immediately sent out an email to my readers to make sure that that they knew the full details. I also hosted and encouraged this open discussion. I did take personal responsibility for promoting it as a 9.95 product, and still do...
Lol:: sure i skipped to read a lot of interesting comments here.
@deb "I know India is a poor country"
Sorry deb, I reckon 'developing country' would be apt.
@dr mani. "Millions of people are surviving on $200".
India provides extensive range of options for people from all walks of lives. Families with $200 income are not just 'surviving' but are able to make a comfortable (if not luxurious) living with that amount. Lets start to project India in its avant-garde image rather than the 300 yr old 'poor country' stamp.
I've lived in India, US and Tanzania and travelled multiple times to middle east & europe. I've seen the extremes of economic distinctions. In 8 yrs of vagrant life (not really 😉 ), I learnt to 'respect people irrespective of what and who they are' and 'value money'.
The money that could buy a pizza in the US, can buy a month's food for a family of 5 in Africa.
Coming to the original point: Joel won over me with his new sales page, especially with the promise about donating to hearts and hands. I went for the book straight away + subscribed for the top 1% report (convinced that i'd b able to unsubscribe if the trial newsletter takes 5 or 6 months to reach me in Africa..).
Its apparent that Joel is aiming at monthly subscribers rather than a 'one-time' purchaser. After all this hullabaloo, he will have to work harder than ever and release a "greater than exceptional newsletter". I can't wait to get my hands on the 1st edition. Not sure if i'd be able to continue subscription though, unless he decides to release a downloadable version for folks like me.
How many are you pre-sold for continuing the subscription? I'm sure Info Media Inc. would love to do a statistical analysis on this.
Bottom Line: "Mistakes are human". No blame on Joel, Lynn, deb, dr mani for what I mentioned in the post. AND ME (If I offended any one. Dont beat me up 🙂
Success to all
Shri
Lynn,
I know you're taking heat over this, but it truly upsets me that people are flaming you because you fell prey to the same eye-sliding and skimming they themselves did.
A comment on my blog today mentions that none of Joel's follow-up emails mentions the newsletterl. Joel, what about that? Is it possible that fell through the cracks? I checked mine, too and nothing is mentioned in the affiliate "stuff," either. ("Stuff" is a highly technical term LOL.)
Deb
Hi Lynn, i can see great discussion here about Joel. This discussion make me curious to know about Joel and his product 🙂
I never heard about him before, since i have just start learning about online business three months ago.
I am interested buying Joel's adsense ebook, but i can't go through your link.
I think there must be something with my IP being banned from purchasing through shoppingcart? (I use dial up network)
This is the error i got :
"Unable to connect
Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at http://www.1shoppingcart.com.
* The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in a few moments.
* If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network connection.
* If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure that Firefox is permitted to access the Web."
I did try go straight to the site, i load normally. But it goes to error page every time i tried to pay.
I am desperate to buy Joel's ebook, is there any way i can get through Joel's book other that shooping cart?
Thanks Lynn
Not that I know of, but you can use the link at the very bottom of that page to contact Joel's team through the support desk. They should be able to help you out 😉
@ Stan
@ Carol Fentiman
You can now use PayPal to buy Joel's product. Open a support ticket and tell them that's what you want to do and they say they'll fix you up.
Joel just mentioned it 4/23/08 on his JoelCommLive show on:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/joel-comm-live Wednesdays at 1:00PM Eastern
Deb
Very cool, however I worry that Joel is going to have another 'stir' on his hands - but this time with his faithful affiliates. Both the apology page and the support desk bypass the affiliate - and both are being promoted heavily to pull in straggling sales...
Any affiliate that sent someone to the main page is already cookied, so they are getting credit for the sales.
There is no reason to cookie the support desk. No one goes there to buy.
As for paypal, we have to provide SOME sort of option for people who won't buy through the regular means. We've had maybe 10 paypal sales in total.
Joel
Okay here is the thing. I decided to give Joel's system a chance because I am in marketing and PR and a freelance journalist and I am doing research for both my marketing and to test the truth behind these systems. I was pretty happy about signing up, and thought I might even go through all the steps, BUT now I can't log on, I can't get through to the phone number listed just hold and hold and I am phoning from Cape Town in South Africa so that is rather expensive, there is no way on the site to opt out so that is impossible, my money has been taken out of the bank which I realise they are entitled to do, I did read the fine print but I have had no emails, can't log in to page, so at the moment I am a very fed up widow with three kids to support and a horrible fear that I might end up paying this for the rest of my life, I want to cancel my subscription any ideas how? On the other hand there might be a very good article in it on things you should never sign up for on the internet without making sure you can exercise the promised option of opting out, basically I want my money back as I have had no service whatsover in terms of anything other than the first cheap tutorial WHAT TO DO?
Good to know, Joel - thank you so much for clearing that up 🙂
Ran across a quote today that seemed suiting to share here...
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. "
-Martin Luther King, Jr.
I think you just knighted him.
I too completely missed the forced-continuity part of Joel's original sales page, and I absolutely hate that marketing ploy. I haven't bought the ebook yet, and I'm not sure I'm going to. Deb's comments were brilliant. I couldn't have said it better myself.
I don't bow down to gurus. When I'm considering buying an IM product from someone that big, I'm no longer impressed by how successful that marketer is, but how successful their *customers* have been. And I find myself wondering anew just how many of the hordes of customers of Joel's have been successful themselves in the past few years.
Seems most that post are still struggling.
I've been reading this thread with interest and some amusement. Lynn started an excellent discussion that will have long-lasting effects on the IM community, IMO. And that's cool!
When Internet Marketers (like Joel Comm) take the time to read comments like these and adjust their practices to be more inline with customers' and prospects' expectations, it shows the increasing education and influence of today's customers.
It also points up the fact that Internet Marketers are now being held accountable for their marketing practices and that they realize the power of the Internet to increase or decrease their own influence in the marketplace of ideas. That's a good thing.
When good marketers navigate the murky waters of internet marketing, making some mistakes along the way but dealing with them with integrity, it elevates the entire industry.
Thanks Lynn. Thanks to all those who commented. And thanks very much to Joel Comm.
@ Ana Most people who buy courses, be they Joel's or Anthony Robbins', do little with them. The fact that most are still struggling says less about them than it does about people in general! 😉 Knowledge is just knowledge. Correct implementation/action is what makes all the difference.
Those of you that ordered Adsense 4.0 should have received your complimentary copy of The Top 1% Report by now. I have published a full review of the report at http://www.clicknewz.com/1523/top-1-percent-review/ and would love for you to leave your comments on it there as well.
wow, nice information.
So folks...what is this all about finally? I have read all this blog page and all are concerned about a bill of 30USD which is much less than a couple of your favorite magazines and nobody talked on his new business and how much one is making on it. So my question is straight. Is this yet another scam to get you started and off in a couple of failed months and lost time or is this something that one who is serious and invests time will eventually get his worth...
Nickolas
To: Nickolas in response to your post above
I am quite happy with my subscription. I am still receiving my copies monthly since the original launch and am enjoying them immensely, with the private membership site included.
They are filled with gems that you can put into action immediately and also have monthly action plans to help you do so.
Yep, these issues definitely help me keep up with the changing times and to make money online.
It is however up to each individual to determine for him or herself if the information is right for them and then take the necessary action and put the materials to good use.
For some, that may be too much to ask . . . I would recommend these to anyone interested in building an online business.
Al Smith
I recently downloaded Joel Comm's Adsense Secrets 4 and I'm glad I found great secrets to earn good money from Adsense, in an effective way that maximizes my search engine traffic. Adsense is a great passive income earner for me. In factm, right now, I'm contemplating to apply for an early retirement and focus on my online business when my Adsense earning reaches $1,000 monthly. I believe I CAN!
I recently added Adsense to my sites which has been a modest success. I held out for a long time, but thought I'd test it out. The initial results are okay, but I know I can improve it. Thanks for sharing the Joel Comm resource. I'll check it out.