The Biggest Webinar in IM History / Perry Belcher

[Lynn Terry]

You may have heard my comments about this on Episode 20 of the IMTW Podcast (http://www.internetmarketingthisweek.com), which got me called a "terrorist" (lol). I'm curious how many of you listened in to Perry Belcher's free webinar on Social Media last week, and what you thought of it. There was a high-end product launch on the back side of that webinar - did you buy? Thoughts on the product?

On that same topic, check out Mike Young's blog post this week:
Ryan Deiss: Is Perry Belcher His Employee? (http://mikeyounglaw.com/wp/2009/07/29/ryan-deiss-perry-belcher-employee/) (comments too)

Your thoughts?

[Lynn Terry]

This post disappeared overnight. Unfortunately I cant locate a cached copy on Google either - and I made the mistake of refreshing the page, otherwise I could copy & paste some of it to share with you...

Makes it even more interesting. :cool:

[lisamariemary]

I got the email Mike sent out last week on a different post he'd done on Perry Belcher and then got to reading and reading! All of his posts on Perry and the ENTIRE SaltyDroid.info blog! I read the whole thing! LOL!

I met Perry on Twitter and was impressed with his happy, perky attitude and exchanged tweets with him a few times. He even found out about Gary Vaynerchuk because of a post I had done on Gary. Perry thanked me a lot for letting him know about Gary. So I'm thinking 'cool dude' right?

Then we get the notice that because we're on Carrie Wilkerson's list, we get free access to Make Money with Google. Super cool, right?

Get it, start listening to it - hear Perry and Ryan call affiliate marketers a sham and anyone who says they run a 'business' that is 'just' doing aff. mark. is a super dork, or however they worded it. Quit listening.

Now, because, I'm on a list of his for getting this free - I get a phone call from a phone center. Guy sounds nice enough, so I talk to him a bit. Then when I'm not ready to fork over $10,000 to learn how to run a real business - guy gets SUPER crappy with me!!! "Let us know when you're ready to run a real business!!!" and hangs up on me. what ev

So I'm completely disillusioned - or enlightened, I should say - about the whole lot of them.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

And I'm stickin' with Lynn - cuz she's the REAL deal!

[Lynn Terry]

Interesting...

This is the kind of stuff that really upsets me about the industry. And that gets me called a "terrorist" haha.

If anyone DOES have a copy of the blog post I linked to above still open in their browse - DONT CLOSE IT or refresh it. Copy it first (because it doesnt exist anymore) - I'd love to have a copy of that.

[lisamariemary]

Interesting thing is that Mike still has the tweet that tweeted out that post in his tweetstream. I mean, even if he deleted it - it would still stay in Twitter search (forever!) LOL - but, if he deleted the post - I would have thought he would have deleted the tweet, too.

Does leave a good place to ask him where it went though..... hmm...

http://twitter.com/internetlaw4u/status/2920936653

[Lynn Terry]

If anyone subscribes to his blog via RSS - it would still be in the reader probably...

The comments were particularly interesting.

[lisamariemary]

Oooh, I get his posts by email.... going to check!!! ::slaps head::


Totally weird...can't find it.

[Lynn Terry]

:: fingers crossed ::

[lisamariemary]

I can't find it, but, you know what - I could swear that there is another blog he does. I mean, I know he changed the theme - so that might be what's making me think of 'two' different blogs...

I'm so behind on email, too - so I might have lost it in the spam folder

[KarenMcG]

Lynn,

Is this what you want?....

Ryan Deiss: Death of Forced Continuity

With the possible exception of Michel and Sylvie Fortin, I’ve been the biggest critic online about forced continuity programs and other unethical marketing tactics. After writing Perry Belcher – Arrest of an Internet Marketer and Perry Belcher: Internet Marketer Pleads Guilty and Forfeits Assets, I’m sure that his friend and mentor, Ryan Deiss, hasn’t been pleased with me.

Yet I will give credit where credit is due. Ryan Deiss just issued a special report, The Death of Forced Continuity. You can get it for free (e-mail opt in required).

My take? Agree with about 90% of it and recommend that you read it. Deiss contends that switching to optional continuity is the way to go because (1) it is the right thing to do for his customers and (2) he makes more money with optional continuity.

Although we’re in business to make money, the second reason is almost irrelevant in my book. If it is the right thing to do, do it.

What do you think?
----------------------------------------
Two comments:

Jack | Apr 7, 2009 | Reply

It’s so much easier to just play by the rules, and do what’s right. Look at the huge downside of dodgy marketing. For one thing, you always have to be looking over your shoulder. Seems pretty stressful, and the odds are against you long term. Also, if you ultimately get the rug pulled out from under you, then you lose all your gains anyway. You’ll ALWAYS pay a price with that thinking–either stress, health, and peace of mind–or losing everything. And if you look at the term “forced continuity,” it kind of defines the result. It forces people to give up their money. That can only be a recipe for problems.

#

Say It So They Buy It | Jun 7, 2009 | Reply

Your points are well-taken, though I felt that Ryan was less than genuine by the way he presented his material. To tie one product to the purchase of another is totally legitimate when fully disclosed – it’s like getting a bonus with purchase. To say it is dead is wrong; to say that the illegal way of doing it SHOULD be dead seems right on for me. Hey, today I did a full scan of a computer with a product that said “free scan” and the blogger talking about the product said it was FREE… but when the scan was over, it cost money to FIX what was found in the free scan. Not to ME— THAT is a scam way worse than saying to get product B you have to purchase my product A. Let’s keep this in perspective and help people as our primary aim.

Best,

Charlie Seymour Jr
-----------------------------
This is the cache link:

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:fcsNAjRl4K8J:mikeyounglaw.com/wp/2009/04/06/ryan-deiss-death-of-forced-continuity/+Ryan+Deiss:+Is+Perry+Belcher+His+Employee%3F&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

-------------------------------------------------
Note:

I've been off computer since Friday morning not doing much except trying to get two computers synced when my main keyboard and my computer started sending crazy messages to each other.

So the cache was still there...if, that is, this is what you were talking about.

[Lynn Terry]

No, this one was titled as I linked to it in the original post in this thread.

One of the more memorable comments was where Mike Young said something about islamic law & punishment, and that at least con artists would type slower with less fingers - something along those lines.

It discussed Perry's history of charges for fraud, why he worked under the umbrella of Ryan Deiss' company, who owned what, income claims, false scarcity, etc. I could kick myself for refreshing the page - otherwise I could have saved a copy.

Perry's history is no secret. He references it himself. This article was just particularly interesting - and even more so when it did the disappearing act!

[KarenMcG]

No, this one was titled as I linked to it in the original post in this thread.

One of the more memorable comments was where Mike Young said something about islamic law & punishment, and that at least con artists would type slower with less fingers - something along those lines.

It discussed Perry's history of charges for fraud, why he worked under the umbrella of Ryan Deiss' company, who owned what, income claims, false scarcity, etc. I could kick myself for refreshing the page - otherwise I could have saved a copy.

Perry's history is no secret. He references it himself. This article was just particularly interesting - and even more so when it did the disappearing act!

Thanks for the additional information.

YOWZA!

[Lynn Terry]

Another interesting post - again, interesting comments as well (over a year old):

http://mikeyounglaw.com/wp/2008/04/16/perry-belcher-the-arrest-of-an-internet-marketer/

[lisamariemary]

One of the more memorable comments was where Mike Young said something about islamic law & punishment, and that at least con artists would type slower with less fingers - something along those lines.


Well, geez, that really sounds like the Salty Droid!! I'm thinking more and more that Mike (or a buddy of his) really is behind that character!

[Lynn Terry]

For the record, I dont know Perry Belcher personally. I am not his affiliate, have never met him in person, and have never purchased any of his products. So all I really know is hearsay, Google results... and by watching a few of his videos (which are great).

Unfortunately, there are a lot of negative comments. On the post I just linked to above ^^ there were comments of issues with affiliate payout. On the post that got deleted, there were comments about his marketing ethics etc.

I know nothing about the quality of the high-ticket product he just put out. I've been told that it converted VERY well. I saw a lot of the "market leaders" promote it. And that's why I was curious if anyone here listened in, bought the product, and if so on either -what you thought of it...

[LisaWood]

I found this in Yahoo's cache. No comments, though.

Ryan Deiss: Is Perry Belcher His Employee? »

If you thought you’ve been buying info products from Perry Belcher this past year, perhaps you haven’t. I’m not talking about any ghost writing for “Get Money from Google” or “Social Media Money System.”

Instead, let’s deal with who owns what.

The domain names for the two products mentioned are both registered to Ryan Deiss (not Perry)…apparently as an individual. What’s the point of having corporations or limited liability companies if you’re not going to use them?

The business structure is somewhat interesting. Here’s a brief overview of what’s available from the public records.

* InfoMastery LLC is owned 100% by Touchstone Publishing, LLC (not Perry).
* Touchstone also owns 50% of Commonwealth Ventures LLC and Sharptrade Partners LLC.
* Ryan Deiss is President of both Touchstone and InfoMastery (not Perry).
* Commonwealth is controlled by Ryan Deiss and Nathan Hopkins (not Perry). Nathan Hopkins is the Managing Member.
* Sharptrade is controlled by Ryan Deiss and Jason Fielder (not Perry). Jason Fielder is the Managing Member.

Does Perry have an equity stake in InfoMastery?

If not, is he just an employee?

Or is he an independent contractor?

Is he simply a front man for Ryan Deiss? What’s the real deal?

Is Perry who he says he is (reformed criminal turned successful entrepreneur) or just another Sham Wow pitchman?

The tax and legal implications are intriguing.

[TraciKnoppe]

I had someone else I know via Twitter/Facebook ask me if I was attending the call. They sent me a link - I did sign up for the call, then realized it was the same night as another call I had, so I ultimately did not listen to Perry's.

That said, looks like I didn't miss much - or rather, I did, but nothing worthwhile. ;)

This is what gets me, honestly - really ticks me off: when 'market leaders' promote someone with questionable integrity and ethics: just for the money.

His call center tactics alone would put him in the unethical category by my standards. You don't use those tactics on your customers, or potential customers - and you can't tell me Perry doesn't know they're doing that. Come on - he knows!

But to have all this other negative stuff about him, and he admits it, the guy is not someone I would personally choose to align myself with. I don't care if he could poop out golden eggs, there are more important things than money. Integrity being one of them.

It's sad to see other market leaders following the money trail. He may very well know his stuff - but at what cost and to whom?

[Lynn Terry]

That's the post, Lisa ;)

It's a shame the comments weren't in tact...

Thank you for the paste!

[nar321]

http://mikeyounglaw.com/wp/2008/04/16/perry-belcher-the-arrest-of-an-internet-marketer/ So now even SSWT shortens links. The hyperlink deals with the arrest of Perry Belcher.

[pschlegel]

In case anyone never noticed, the IM industry is one of the weirdest industries ever. LOL.

I think the best advice I ever got was from a friend who told me "ideas are where you find them."

There are definitely people I've learned great stuff from in the internet marketing field that I wouldn't necessarily trust on a personal level.

If people are calling Lynn a terrorist I'd hate to think about what they're calling me. LOL.

Of course I'm really wondering why the post was taken down. i.e., was a C&D sent. Oh well. Guess we'll never know.

[Lynn Terry]

Hey Paul ;)

The sad part of it all - and I'm referring to Internet Marketing in general - is the amount of misinformation and over-complication out there. And the number of people who get caught up in it all (because they dont know any better) and get totally derailed from any real goal of running a successful online business.

The hype is enticing. So enticing that it seems to override common sense and gut instinct.

Obviously those of us who are seasoned in this industry have a better feel for things, and will even invest in things we know are hype to study the process as much as the material.

Of course we're in the minority. There isn't much that I can do about it personally, outside of continue to make an effort to educate the market and share core principles that will help them make smart decisions. And continue I will.

My interest in this particular story follows the recent episode of the IMTW podcast - where this particular launch was discussed - and in hopes of getting some reviews/feedback on the actual product sold during that launch...

I know Paul Colligan (one of my co-hosts) made the purchase, and I'll see him later this week at the SNL8 event - so I look forward to hearing his thoughts on it.

[Julie Anna]

His call center tactics alone would put him in the unethical category by my standards. You don't use those tactics on your customers, or potential customers - and you can't tell me Perry doesn't know they're doing that. Come on - he knows!

But to have all this other negative stuff about him, and he admits it, the guy is not someone I would personally choose to align myself with. I don't care if he could poop out golden eggs, there are more important things than money. Integrity being one of them.

Yes, I was really disappointed to see Ryan aligned with Perry recently. It just didn't "feel" right to me. I haven't followed Deiss in years but he started out as a top notch marketer and had some brilliant free training when he began teaching about continuity (not forced but good solid business model ideas).

On the forced continuity comments, I asked about this a month or so ago on the forum and sought opinions when I saw that Russel Brunson was still teaching this after a couple of years of not being on his list any longer. Every experience I have had with this business model has been negative. Much like LMM's call center experience from Belcher's co., I also had a call that was borderline rude from Brunson's crew with similar terminology ... "don't you want a "real" business?" and "you're happy with chump change?" Then my work is finished here sort of tone and condescension.

Anyhow, when I read and saw the latest testimonial and poster child vid by the preschool teacher turned rich it was tempting to jump on the forced continuity model for a milisecond then I remembered who I am and what I represent - it's not all about money for me. I'd think the complaint and trouble tickets are a high percentage of employee wages for these owners. I have enough trouble keeping up with my paid membership and people who forgot they were signed up, etc. that I can't even imagine the issues of billing people who didn't realize what they signed up for or that they were actually going to pay for something. It's just not for me.

JA

[Lynn Terry]

You realize, JA, that they are probably laughing at us "all the way to the bank". Laughing at how hard we work to build up our little communities (condescending tone) and how much we 'enjoy' our work - while they earn more in one launch than we earn all month or year.

And why should they care what people think, or what they like or dislike? Why should they worry about their reputation? After all, as one of them has proven, you can go as far as pleading guilty to internet fraud charges... and still come back as a rock star with no sweat.

And if you tie it into your "story" you could have people believing you're a hero... and handing you $3,000 - over the internet, even.

Amazing.

Something is seriously wrong with this market. And it's obviously not JUST the marketing.

[TraciKnoppe]

And why should they care what people think, or what they like or dislike? Why should they worry about their reputation? After all, as one of them has proven, you can go as far as pleading guilty to internet fraud charges... and still come back as a rock star with no sweat.

Yes, but if I actually met one of my customers/clients in person - I could look them in the eye, shake their hand and hold my head high knowing I did my best for them. I sleep well at night with a clear conscience that I've done my best trying to truly help others. As has already been mentioned: it goes back to integrity. Something those 'others' care little about.

I personally believe that one day we will all have to answer to what we've done in this life. Whether you believe that's a judgment from God, bad karma, or coming back to spend your next life as a worm: one day they'll pay! ;)

[Lynn Terry]

I do agree with you -

But for the sake of argument...

These people have huge fan bases, followings, lists - and people dying to get in their view at live events.

Which makes you wonder - what is the real issue?

(It's worth mentioning, for anyone reading along, that we arent referring to anyone specifically at this point, but discussing general industry issues)

Also, there are a lot of experts or "gurus" who aren't necessarily doing anything wrong... yet the market falls all over themselves to buy their products (whether they need them or not, and worse: whether they can afford them or not).

There are definitely a number of issues at play here.

[jamessamy]

Hi Lynn,

I agree what you said. There a lot and lot of guru's out in this universe and everyone trying impress the people who come online but for me i have learned from you and also traci.

It all boils down to individual level, who they trust and more forward.
I like your style, your blog, your forum and also your webinar

Anyway thank you for helping others Lynn :)

[TraciKnoppe]

And for the sake of further argument.... :P

I think it goes back to a bit of what I touched on in my blog post (http://genesisblogging.com/2009/08/your-social-media-marketing-plan-will-change-over-time-and-other-tips-the-gurus-dont-tell-you/) this AM; people wanting an out-of-the box solution to making money online. They're playing follow the leader, and honestly, I believe it's almost a 'cult-like' following for some of these IM 'gurus'.

They have charisma, and that is what sells. They are selling themselves, sometimes more so than their products. People will buy whatever they are selling, because it's them selling it.

So I think that for some folks, the real issue is "Rock Star" Worship. They are viewing these gurus like rock stars and these people are their groupies.

Think about it: how do these launches go? They build it all up into a frenzy-like state. They purposely build the anticipation level, the scarcity, etc... they are masters as marketing - there's no doubt about that. The product itself may or may not actually be any good; the point is that some of the people who are choosing to buy from these marketing 'Rock Stars' are not prepared to use the product. Do not know what to do with it. Are buying it for the wrong reasons; or worse, are buying it just because of who is selling it.

Unfortunately for some, it's like leading lambs to slaughter - they just quietly go along with the crowd to their doom. Just because everyone else is doing it!

[Lynn Terry]

Very good points - and exactly where I was leading.

It also happens in other industries - real estate, MLM, etc (we could make a list, I'm sure). It's marketing, and it works. Mainly they're selling a dream, not a product. And sadly, most people want a dream - not an awesome career or an incredible business and lifestyle they can be proud of.

There are fables and parables that go back for centuries on this very topic. It makes you wonder if people will ever wake up, or if they'll just continue chasing rainbows generation after generation...

[lisamariemary]

people wanting an out-of-the box solution to making money online. They're playing follow the leader, and honestly, I believe it's almost a 'cult-like' following for some of these IM 'gurus'.

They have charisma, and that is what sells. They are selling themselves, sometimes more so than their products.* People will buy whatever they are selling, because it's them selling it.

So I think that for some folks, the real issue is "Rock Star" Worship. They are viewing these gurus like rock stars and these people are their groupies.

*Emphasis mine



Mainly they're selling a dream, not a product. And sadly, most people want a dream - not an awesome career or an incredible business and lifestyle they can be proud of.


You ladies are so spot on! One of these master guru ROCKSTAR teachers, (whose spell I am still a tiny bit under, I must admit) says FLAT OUT that if you don't have a product - DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT! Just get started marketing "it". Start building up the frenzy NOW. One of his major launches that he did with a best-selling author ran in just this manner.

Just start marketing, get your list going, etc, etc - the product itself will come later.

What the?

[TraciKnoppe]

One of these master guru ROCKSTAR teachers, (whose spell I am still a tiny bit under, I must admit) says FLAT OUT that if you don't have a product - DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT! Just get started marketing "it". Start building up the frenzy NOW. One of his major launches that he did with a best-selling author ran in just this manner.

Just start marketing, get your list going, etc, etc - the product itself will come later.

What the?

That's scary! Look at the pressure of the fixed membership model and not having ALL the content pre-written before launch, or at least several weeks pre-written before launch: it's stressful!

I can not even fathom telling folks to sell a product they have not yet even created! That's honestly - in my humble opinion - like lying to these customers. You're telling them you're gonna deliver this great product that you don't even have!! How do you know it's gonna be great?! You can't possibly have any reviews on it - because it's not written yet!

It's very risky to do that. It's just another way to collect quick cash with a hyped up marketing ploy. It might work - but one day it's gonna fail when they either can't deliver or the product they do deliver is crap because they wrote it quickly to just pump something out; and then it's gonna bite one of these gurus in the butt. ;)

[Lynn Terry]

Good points, Tommy. There is a 4th group though:

Those of us that never got sucked in, that stay focused and driven, and know what we want well enough to determine what takes us closer to our goals - and what distracts us from them.

It's my goal to help people get to that place in their online business quest as early on as humanly possible.

[pschlegel]

Something is seriously wrong with this market. And it's obviously not JUST the marketing.


And that's one reason we see good people leaving all the time. The guys behind Zamdoo (one of the best PPC "spy" tools to come along) left because of it:

To me, many of the remarks they made for why they closed down said volumes about the IM space.

"Dear Customers, Friends and Supporters:

Back in June 2006, Jeff and I decided to take a departure from our "comfort zone" of developing media sites, and took the plunge into Internet Marketing toolkits with the development of ZamDoo.com. As many of you will recall from our initial outreach to the community, our forums, our 500+ person beta test, our shock at the way competitors treated their customers, and our eventual launch - we did things differently, and we treated our customers the way we'd always wanted to be treated ourselves.

As a result, it is with both a touch of nostalgia and sincere pride that we announce today that we'll be closing down both the ZamDoo.com and ZamDooReports.com offerings on August 15th. All existing customers will no longer be billed for your access, and we will no longer be taking any new subscriptions or signups. If you were due to be billed between now and August 15th, you won't be - and all existing members will enjoy their access until that time.

ZamDoo.com and ZamDooReports.com were both very good businesses to us, and taught us a lot about an industry that we knew very little about prior to entering. The fact of the matter is that the sites we build have all fallen outside this vertical, and by entering the IM space, we were entering uncharted territory for us. The marketing tactics, customer relations, quality of products, and customer attitudes are very different from "traditional" online consumer spaces, and frankly Jeff and I weren't as "at home" in IM as we have been with our other products."

[Lynn Terry]

What a shame. I don't recall ever hearing about these sites either. I'm not sure why. I hate to see good people like that leaving the space though...

[Lynn Terry]

Yes, I'll at SNL8 this weekend, and I'm attending Jerry West's pre-event get together as well. I'll be with Nicole Dean (Jimmy D Brown's affiliate manager) so catch us there. I'm really looking forward to the weekend - I'm actually reviewing Dan & Jerry's seo guides side by side this week.

The auto-follow/unfollow is interesting. I was watching that with particular interest as those same guys enthusiastically promoted Perry's Social Media Money System that same week. Which is the slant I bought up on the IMTW Podcast (episode 20).

Look forward to seeing you Thursday!

[ScottTousignant]

OK, Lynn you are not a 'terrorist' nor a 'renegade', you simply provide useful, thought provoking, and applicable information to help us become the best that we can be. You do this with integrity while not being afraid to state your opinions and keeping in line with your values. Sure doesn't sound like terrorism to me ;)

Superstars are the same in any industry. So many people look up to them, yet rarely are they they type of role model that you would like your children to grow up to be like.

It's funny, this post could easily be about the diet industry. A lot of mass confusion and over-complication of basic fundamental principles. Hyped up products with wild claims... scams... false guru's and people buying status rather than what's best for them.

I kind of laugh about the whole Party Principle thing. If you follow his example here's what you do...

Go to a party, pretend to be people's friends, tell funny jokes, be entertaining, get them to tell their friends that you are funny and entertaining, then when you have enough friends you pull out your credit card machine and ask for a few grand from them so you can teach them how to pretend to be peoples friends and ask them for money.

Here's a funny story. Someone I know in the fitness industry actually goes to parties with a payment processing machine on his hip. He'll get people to talk about how much they wish they could lose weight and then he'll pull out his machine and ask them to swipe their credit card so he can send them his book and sign them up for coaching.

...And people actually do it!

So yes it works. But does that align with your values?

If your sole purpose is to rake in wads of cash without caring about whether or not your customers use what they've purchased from you, then this model is right for you.

I however have a purpose in life and a legacy that I want to be proud of. You can earn a wonderful living and stay aligned with your values, passion, and purpose.

We're building more than a business here. We're changing lives and making the world a better place. We're impacting families. We are a family. Let's start acting like it.

You ROCK Lynn. Love ya to pieces.

[TraciKnoppe]

Oh good grief - a card swiper on your hip?!! LOL

Yeah well, some folks also once drank some Kool Aide... just because that once worked, doesn't mean it was such a great idea. ;)

My point is that some marketing is more about charisma of the marketer, than usage of common sense by the customer. ;)

[Julie Anna]

They have charisma, and that is what sells. They are selling themselves, sometimes more so than their products. People will buy whatever they are selling, because it's them selling it.

So I think that for some folks, the real issue is "Rock Star" Worship. They are viewing these gurus like rock stars and these people are their groupies.

True. However, there is nothing new under the sun. They are selling dreams to people and tapping into two basic characteristics we all have to keep in check to stay focused - greed and laziness. This has been happening since the days of the Gold Rush and long before. Hm, wasn't there a launch named Gold Rush something or other? :eek:

I didn't read your blog post but I bet you touched on this, Traci.

JA

[MaryGallagher]

glad I had my blinders on for this one, deleted the 'thousands' of emails about it. M-

[Lynn Terry]

Thank you Scott :)

Excellent points!

[Brismom1]

I did watch the webinar and I was not impressed. :rolleyes: