Is it workable to request some up front payment for work done over the Internet?

[carlos123]

Hi there,

I find myself wondering about something else respecting the services that I am offering through my web site and was wondering if I could get additional input from anyone that might care to give it?

Specifically I am wondering about the following...

I have never, ever had a client of mine stiff me as in walking away with my work and not paying me. Partly I think because I have been very careful about who I work for and because I have not focused at all on working for anyone not based in San Diego (where I could at least go and stand in front of their store front with a protest sign if they did not pay me LOL).

If I do excellent work to the complete satisfaction of a client I expect to be paid what was agreed upon.

Now the problem is this...

As a result of what seems to be a good merchant account deal that is being offered me where I will be able to start accepting credit cards at no up front cost to me (without having to use the likes of PayPal)...I will be able to now offer my services generally over the Internet to anyone.

Which will introduce the very real possibility that I might not get paid for work done for someone entirely over the Internet. Who might live several States away from me (I live in California) or even in a different city than San Diego.

I am thinking that it might be wise to absolutely require a $25 deposit on whatever work I am hired to do for those persons or businesses that are not in the immediate San Diego area.

What do you all think about that?

I realize that I might lose some prospective customers over this requirement (if I implement it) but it's the only way I can think of to somewhat protect myself from people just hiring me to do web site development work and then walking away without paying me.

Anybody experienced problems with non-payment for work over the Internet before? Is that just a cost of doing business? Have you been able to diminish that somewhat in some way? If so...how?

As an alternative is it workable to require a certain amount of money to be put into an escrow account whose funds will not be released unless both parties agree or something similar (if such a thing is available online)?

I am all ears if anyone has any input or suggestions on this.

Thanks.

Carlos

[Bonnie]

Hi Carlos,

I've always asked for (and received without argument) half of my fee up front for copywriting work (and the other half after delivery/happy acceptance of the final product).

I've never had a problem with nonpayment. But the people I've done work for are "known" to me -- virtually speaking :) They're also known to many others, and value their reputations (they wouldn't want word to get out that they'd failed to pay for services rendered... and on the Internet, word always gets out). So who you do work for may make a difference, as you've suggested.

I think asking for a nonrefundable deposit is wise. Suppose you start a project for someone and spend several hours on it, but they contact you before you're done (and before you send them a bill) to say the project is canceled? Even if they don't receive the product from you, you've devoted a lot of your time to it (time you could've spent on other projects)... so you should receive some compensation.

Bonnie

[carlos123]

Thanks for the input Bonnie. Trouble with asking for some payment up front and giving a payment up front is that neither party really knows the other such that either one could lose out.

I guess it's safer working with people in forums or that one knows by other means over the Internet in that their reputation definitely would take a hit if either they did not do a good job or pay as agreed upon.

In any case my merchant account "good deal" was not the good deal I thought it was going to be so I am back to just focusing on new clients in the San Diego area (where I can pick up a check in person or have them transfer money directly into my bank account) and advertising either by calling on new clients directly over the phone or using craigslist.

Thanks again for your input Bonnie.

Carlos

[TraciKnoppe]

Same here, during all my years as a web designer, I always required 50% of my estimated quote in advance of my starting work. In the service-based industry, this is standard, because your time is what you're being paid for and a deposit ensures you get paid for at least part of your time, should the client bail on you.

Believe me, I've taken on clients without requesting the 50% deposit, and gotten burned. So yes, it's acceptable to ask for a good faith deposit, or whatever you want to call it; but generally if folks have money invested in a project, they'll see it through to the end. Not always, but usually.

It's the same concept as charging folks to attend webinars/teleseminars - usually if they pay to attend, they see more value in it and have an investment in it, so they show up.

[LisaWood]

Same here. 50% up front, 50% on completion. Occasionaly I'll set up a payment plan for that final 50%, but that's rare and only for people that I KNOW aren't going to stiff me. I try to be flexible, but it IS a business and we do have to pay our own bills.

[carlos123]

Hmm...that's interesting. Locally in San Diego I have never asked for money up front and I have always been paid. So far :).

I do find it rather odd that someone would be willing to give you all 50% up front over the Internet sight unseen. I mean any high school kid can set up a decent looking web site, say anything they want on it, claim they have done so and so web sites and otherwise make themselves look credible and then ask for 50% up front.

I would have thought most people would balk at paying that to someone they do not know at all.

I don't think I could get 50% up front even from potential clients that see me in person in San Diego! People just don't trust each other these days. Especially in San Diego. It's like everyone treats everyone else around here like everyone is a scammer out to get something from everybody else.

This assumes that you all have gotten this up front money from persons unknown to you or you to them over the Internet. Something that is just...well...hard for me to understand as to why people would do that.

Carlos

[retta719]

I've done the same 50% up front for big projects routine and had no problems. In some cases I've asked for full payment up front and usually had no problems. A few people walked away and found someone else because they didn't want to pay in full up front.

If it's someone totally new to me that I don't already have a relationship with via a recommendation (someone recommended me to them) then I'll do at least a 50% up front request. My regular clients I am more than happy to finish first and bill them when I'm finished or at the end of the week etc...

[KathleenGageSpeaker]

I agree with the 50% up front. In some cases I require 100% non refundable. It depends on the service.

One thing that minimizes the buyers hesitation is how well positioned you are, what kind of testimonials you have on your blog or website and how long you have been around. These all factor into the trust from the potential client.

Kathleen Gage

[torontocarol]

As Kathleen mentioned, how well positioned you are, your testimonials, and how long you've been around will help build trust. It's the same with making a purchase on the Internet. Sometimes I'm willing to buy something from someone I don't know, but I do my research first and make sure there have been no complaints, etc.

I've been paid 100% upfront to do ghostwriting for members of the warrior forum, and they didn't mind because I'd been around for awhile and they knew me. Think I prefer 50% upfront though. It helps your motivation knowing there will be more reward when you're done.

[carlos123]

Thanks for the added input you all. Much appreciated.

The problem I have is that I have no testimonials to speak of (well my one large client would probably give me one but I cannot yet show the work I have done on the site...work he is very satisfied with...as it is a hush hush social networking site that has not yet gone live). I have also had some other one shot project gigs but never bothered to ask them for testimonials.

Needless to say I will try and get some in the future as well as building up a nice portfolio page.

But for now I have nothing to show per se other than my own site at www.carlosgonzalezconsulting.com

So basically someone would be paying up front sight unseen so to speak. That may be a problem. I don't know until I try I guess.

If any of you wouldn't mind reading where I ask for a deposit up front I would very much appreciate further input on whether the amount I am asking for and how I ask for it is reasonable.

On my http://www.carlosgonzalezconsulting.com/introductory-special page I make the point inside the little boxes within the text that I require an up front $25 non-refundable deposit.

Then on my http://www.carlosgonzalezconsulting.com/paying-for-services page I go into why I ask for that deposit a bit more.

I also may have a problem with the acceptable methods that clients can pay me through too. Not sure.

Any and all input that anyone might care to give me further on this would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Carlos

[robert adams]

why do you not offer paypal as a payment option?

you would probably increase your sales by a lot if you do.

robert

[carlos123]

why do you not offer paypal as a payment option?

you would probably increase your sales by a lot if you do.

robert

Don't know about increasing my sales a whole lot by offering PayPal Robert.

The item I have for "sale" at my web site is web development services. That is not something one buys on the spur of the moment like an ebook or something on Ebay might be.

If I was buying web development services, whether someone accepts PayPal or not would be the least of my concerns or criteria as to whether I would hire them.

More important for me and probably for most people would be their reputation, their portfolio, what kind of deal they could offer me, whether anyone I know recommends them, that type of thing.

How I could pay them would be of almost no consideration for me since I would be willing to even mail a check by regular postal mail to a really good web developer who operates in integrity and can be trusted.

There are lots and lots of reasons to not use PayPal. Just do a Google search on the phrase "PayPal sucks" (excuse my French but it's the best phrase to use for this) and you will be treated to an eyeful of reasons. Too many for me to list here.

Personally I don't use PayPal for a number of reasons...

1. PayPal is not regulated like a regular bank. It is an entity to itself. If they decide for whatever reason to freeze your account, even if the reason is entirely and completely without merit you are at their mercy. They can hold your money for months and months...even years while you beat your head against the proverbial wall of trying to get a hold of them to resolve the problem. Your money does not go into your bank account directly. It is under the control of PayPal.

2. Their customer service is all but non-existant. Ever try to get a hold of them and resolve something? It's near impossible to do so.

3. In my case they once got it into their heads to freeze my account due to my having been on some kind of list such that they then wanted all kinds of personal and incredibly intrusive information from me to prove who I was to their complete and ultimate satisfaction. They absolutely would not tell me what this list was. I did some research and this so-called list freezing was not unique to me but also being experienced by others and not just in the US. Since I did not use them a whole lot at the time and since they did not have the common decency to answer my reasonable questions as to what this list was that had caused the accounts of me and others to be frozen...well...let's just say that I told them to...well...get lost in so many words.

4. I don't absolutely need to use PayPal.

I think those are the main one's that come to mind.

Oh I don't like EBay either (owner's of PayPal) since they are very much alike as companies. In it for the almighty dollar no matter how much they step on their customer's toes or ignore them.

The thing with PayPal is that they are fine until you have a problem with them...then God help you.

I've finally figured out a way for anyone, anywhere in the U.S. to pay me for my services. http://www.carlosgonzalezconsulting.com/paying-for-services goes into the details. Maybe it's too much. Don't know. Guess I won't know until I try it for a while. Haven't had anyone yet tell me they did not want to use my services because of the ways they can pay me :).

Getting the $25 up front good faith deposit is the only problem really. I don't start to work on something until their payment clears. If they send me a check that can introduce a bit of a delay in getting started. But there are ways around that if a client really wants me to be their web developer and if they really don't want me to wait. So I focus on selling myself first and foremost. If I can sell myself I don't think how I accept payments is going to be a major problem. A bit inconvenient...yes...but not a show stopper.

When I can afford it I think I will sign up with an e-check processing company and accept online checks.

Carlos

[robert adams]

well, I certainly can't blame you for not liking paypal with that type of history.

however, it is the number one way that money changes hands in online transactions these days.

I too have heard the horror stories but I think they were mainly in the past and a very small number compared to the millions of paypal users.

If one is concerned about their money , it is a simple task to move it out of paypal at any time.

I am not trying to sell you on paypal at all, just trying to inject a little more info.

I think you would be surprised how many people would simply not do business with you because you are not offering the payment service that they are used to.

Whether it is a service business or any other type of business, people that do business online expect to be able to pay via paypal.

As to your original question;
I too believe that asking for a deposit or even complete payment up front is perfectly acceptable in the online world.

You usually can't buy anything online without paying up front for it, including services.

luck,
robert

[KathleenGageSpeaker]

I resisted offering PayPal as a payment option for quite some time. A couple years ago I decided to give it a shot. Wow! Was I way off base by not offering it sooner.

I have products and services that range from a few dollars to several thousand. 70 - 80% of low priced items go through PayPal. 40% or so on mid-range and 20 - 40% on higher end.

I recently contracted a web designer and have been very pleased to have the PayPal option for payment as I have for other vendors I deal with.

I had a transcriptionist I utilized for about a year who preferred PayPal payments. This made payment very easy and fast. When the transcriptionist moved out of the States and decided to close her business I found another excellent resource. However, one downside. I have to pay her by check. That's an added step I would be happy to do without.

I would invite anyone who is wondering whether or not PayPal is a good option to try it and then make your decision.

[carlos123]

I had a transcriptionist I utilized for about a year who preferred PayPal payments. This made payment very easy and fast. When the transcriptionist moved out of the States and decided to close her business I found another excellent resource. However, one downside. I have to pay her by check. That's an added step I would be happy to do without.


Hi Kathleen,

I think what you did respecting the new resource you found is key. You paid her anyway :). Even if it wasn't through PayPal.

Certainly you would be happy to pay through PayPal but since that's not an option for you...you didn't go around looking for someone who was offering PayPal. Rather you paid her and continue to pay her by check.

That's what I am saying.

People don't go around trying to find merchants that accept PayPal (at least no one that I know does that). They go around finding good deals. Once they find a good deal or a needed service they pay in whatever way they can. PayPal or not.

As you also pointed out the smaller ticket items are more sensitive to whether or not a visitor is presented with convenient payment options at the time of the sale. The higher ticket items are not as readily affected by that. Some for sure but not as readily.

I personally have never, ever altered a buying decision simply because a merchant offered PayPal or not. But I realize that may not be typical.

So far no one, not a single potential client of mine, has ever changed their mind about using my services simply because I don't use PayPal. Not a one.

I wonder if the lack of PayPal objection to making a sale is an imaginary one that really does not translate into real life. I wonder if the real objection is not the lack of PayPal but rather that the pre-sale did not do a good enough job of differentiating a product and making it highly valuable in the mind of the buyer before ever getting to the point of buyer decision as to how to pay. They balk at buying and we assume it's the lack of PayPal and the ease with which they can pay when in fact it may be that they just didn't see real value in our product to sufficiently motivate them to pay with whatever method of payment we were accepting.

The biggest client I have even goes to the bank and makes physical deposits into my bank account when he needs me to do something for him. Sure it's inconvenient for him to do that (I will talk to him in the future about just sending a check to the address of my banks check processing center) but he wants to use me for web development work and that's that. He will pay me in whatever way he can.

If a customer absolutely insists on using PayPal I am not sure that I would want them as a customer. Seriously. If their desire to use me as a web developer is to be made on such a superficial consideration and if they are unwilling to even write a check and mail it to me...that's not the kind of customer I want.

I want a customer who recognizes the value of what I have to offer. Such that they then place enough value on it that they will readily and willingly write a check, get out an envelope and put a stamp on it to mail it to me (in a worst case of my not being able to accept payments in any other way). If they are not willing to do even that small of a thing...then they either don't see the value of my services enough or they don't appreciate what I can offer them enough.

Now of course that means I have to really sell myself in such a way that clients who have never met me see real value in what I have to offer but isn't that what internet marketing is all about :D

Selling ourselves properly.

I think if we properly pre-sell and lay the groundwork for making a solid sale it won't matter nearly as much as we might think whether we accept PayPal, credit cards, checks, or any other form of payment. The customer who is sold on what we have to offer will find some way to pay for our product or service. Because they see real value in it.

Just as you and I do when we shop for things ourself. I do not recall ever in my life making a buying decision simply because a merchant, offline or online, did not accept credit cards, checks, and or cash in particular. If I could pay them somehow I paid them even if at times it was a wee bit inconvenient for me. I wanted what they were selling and I found some way to pay for it.

I've even gone out of my way to go to a teller machine to get cash to make cash sales to those who wouldn't accept any other form of payment. Now that's a whole lot more inconvenient and costly than simply writing a check and putting it in an envelope from the comfort of my home.

I'm banking on internet clients being willing to do at least that little to get the value of my services (at least until I find a more convenient means of accepting their money..there are several other ways to pay me for services even now).

Just saying. Not arguing or anything.

Carlos

[Lynn Terry]

I would personally NOT do that. It's paypal or credit card, or no sale. I'm not being hard, just honest. The whole point of outsourcing is to make my life easier!

All of my internet business is done through a PO Box. My checks have my home office address on them - plus I feel less safe handing out my routing # & account # on a slip of paper, than I do using my cc on a secure server. But that's just me.

[KathleenGageSpeaker]

One thing that any entrepreneur must keep in mind is what does the client/customer want. That is not to say we have to do something that goes against our values, but when it comes to providing something that makes our customers life easier, why not?

I have actually made decisions not to buy some items because the hassle for a small purchase was not worth it.

On larger purchases I can agree that I may not base my decision to work with someone based on how I have to pay them, but I appreciate convenience. And using my PayPal account to pay a vendor makes my life easier.

[carlos123]

Good points you all. I appreciate the honest and forthright input.

I may have to change my willingness to use PayPal (though I think I will shortly be able to accept credit cards without using them) but if I do give in and use them it will be in no small part to your all's patience in bearing with all my logicalizing, kicking and screaming, hollering, and otherwise making hiss sounds out of my mouth at the idea of using PayPal. LOL.

It's kinda like having someone beat up on you, treat you like dirt, grind your face into the ground, and then having to go back to them...get some more pie in your face...and say thank you all because no one else can give you what they can as easily as they can.

By the way do I have the capability to create polls here with my limited membership? I am wondering about creating a poll to see how many people here would actually be affected by having PayPal or not as a payment option. It might be instructive to everyone to have such a poll (I will probably be doing this at some of the larger forums I belong to). What you all have been saying has me curious.

Carlos

[Lynn Terry]

I believe you do - try starting a new thread and see if the poll option is available.

[carlos123]

Thanks Lynn. Will do.

Carlos

[CherylAntier]

Hi Carlos,

I've just checked out your Website - nice job. As a copywriter, I have a few suggestions for you...

First of all, while I appreciate the fact that you only charge $25 an hour, as a potential client, I don't need (or want) to know the process behind it, or that you're feeling conflicted about over charging... Why? Because when you tell me that, it shows me that you're not sure you're worth $25, and if you don't think you're worth it, I'm pretty sure you're not... As a client, if I'm looking for a web consultant, I want two things:
1. Someone who knows what they're doing - an "expert"

2. Someone who will do what I'm hiring them to do which is to make my Website be found online, attract new visitors and convert them into paying clients.

So when I'm looking for a web expert, the only things I want to know is: Are you the right guy for me?

So, as a copywriter, my suggestion to you would be - take out everything from here:
..."The hours that I bill for (i.e. billable hours) are not always exactly the hours that I actually spend working on a project. They are almost always less.

This is because I do not feel it right to charge my clients to learn to do something I have no previous experience with (unless they willingly pay me to learn something I have no professional interest or need in learning to do). My clients pay me to use skills I already have (or to quickly refresh particular skills they need but which I haven't used in a while) not to learn new skills on their time.

There are exceptions in that sometimes a client will pay me for some learning time to get up to speed on how to work with their source code in particular, learn a new technology they want me to implement which I would not take the time to learn on my own, or otherwise. But such exceptions are not the norm.

If I do not wish to take the time to learn something on my own to service a client need I will let the client know so that they can find someone else or I will get pre-approval from them to charge for taking the time to learn something new.

Carlos..."

Because you're wasting valuable space there - because people visiting your site don't care about that. (If you really feel you need to say that, put it somewhere else - on your "about me" page, for example.) Instead, tell me about your services. I may not know what a web consultant is, or I may want more information about what you can do for me... so tell me. But not about the process.

Next - your introductory offer... I think you're going to get a lot of people who will take you up on it... But... (Okay, I'm new to the forum and the last I thing I want to do is get labeled as a meanie...) But Carlos - let's say you get 5 people who take you up on your offer...

That means you're going to get paid $250 - and you're going to be doing 25 hours of work - that's 3 days worth - plus more, because you and I both know there's prep work, research, and a bunch of other "non-billable" hours that go into what you do. But even if we leave it at the 25 hours... You're making $10 an hour...

The problem I have with this for you, is that once you've got a client who thinks you're only worth $10 an hour... or $25 an hour... you're going to have a hard time convincing them that you're worth more later on. And you're going to attract the kind of clients who only want to pay $10 or $25 an hour...And you're going to be working your tail off to survive.

So I have to ask you a question... Are your services worth more than that? Really and truly?

Because even if you're just starting out - even if you don't have a portfolio - (and there are so many ways to build one...) you can't run a successful business making $10 or $25 an hour. It just can't be done. And why would you want to??? You can go get a job and make that much money.

My strongest suggestion would be for you to decide what you're services are worth - and stop apologizing for what you're going to charge - and just start charging that.

At the very least, you might want to charge $50 an hour - because if you do a breakdown of it - even at $50 an hour, with a full client list, you're going to end up with between 20 and 25 hours of un-billable time every week - not to mention there will be times you don't have a full client list, or you want to take a vacation, or you get sick and can't work... so I'd suggest you cost it out - and look at your expenses, your un-billable hours, and what your profit margin is... And I'd also look at what your competition is charging.

As an online business owner, perception is everything - the way your customers perceive you IS your reality. And the people I'm afraid you're going to attract are the people who are going to balk at paying the $25 deposit, and they'll also be the ones who expect you to do even more than you're willing to do right now... and they're the ones who are going to end up stiffing you in the end.

Real business owners - even those of us who only have online businesses - expect to pay for professional services. We know that while every now and then someone like you comes along who does a fabulous job and is undercharging, for the most part, you get what you pay for. And because our businesses provide us the lifestyle we enjoy, we're willing to pay to have those things done right, rather than going cheap and then having to have it done over...

Finally, the only other thing I wanted to add - to what several other people have told you - the Industry Standard is 50% down. People expect that, and they do pay it. As a writer, I have clients in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK and the states - I've not met any of them face to face, and yet they still pay my 50% deposit up front, before I begin their work. Your clients will do the same - as long as they believe that you're a professional who is going to do the job.

So once you've figured out what you're worth - and what you need to charge to build a strong and thriving business, go back over your Website and make some changes to your copy... put in your new prices... and then start marketing your business. You've got lots of experts in here who can give you some very valuable advice about how to do that... so you can attract the level of professional clients you want - and will love - working with...

Well, sorry this was so long... I've got to run - I've been in Paris on vacation for the last nine days and it's time to get packed. We're going to take a side trip to go see some castles on the Rhone river, before heading home and back to work on Tuesday!

Warmly,

Cheryl

[carlos123]

Wow! A lot of very insightful input Cheryl. Much, much appreciated.

I will have to chew on what you shared for a while but there are couple of points that you make that I want to comment on right away.

First off...yes, it's difficult to run any kind of real business on $25 per hour. Even $50 per hour might be tough due to the many hidden costs of doing business that you alluded to. I am in agreement with you on that one.

But there are a couple of things that lean things in my favor even at the lower rates. My expenses are next to nothing in my life. I mean literally. Without going into the details of things in my life, which I would be happy to do but it would take a small book, I pay all of $200 in rent per month to live in the middle of San Diego! That's for a private bathroom, bedroom, stove, fridge, unlimited internet...the works.

So my expenses are so incredibly low that I can afford to charge less.

There is another factor to consider. And this is something that I have been told. There are Indian programmers (from the country India) that can run circles around what I do...maybe, or at least come close, and who charge only $15 per hour. Putting aside having to work through all the problems associated with finding these good programmers in India, which problems are substantial, one can still end up finding such good programmers. For about $15-20 per hour.

My worth or how I see my worth is relative to what I see the market bearing for services like mine. If I could charge $50-100 per hour you bet I would. But it has been my experience that I can't charge that. I have talked with a number of programmers and that's just not doable anymore. It's not a matter of my not seeing my worth as much as a matter of where I simply can't charge the higher prices anymore. I just can't if I expect to get business.

Now there are some things about my services that make paying me to do web development work something of value. For sure. I can create and help a web site owner maintain a web site easier than even WordPress can give them for one.

But clients don't know that. And they won't know that until they hire me and try me out.

Thus my low price specials.

It's the only way I know to draw new clients in. I expect to lose at least half when it comes to paying me $25 per hour but that's okay. I'd rather get half than none at all.

Most of my advertisement is on craigslist. The competition there is absolutely unbelievable. Fierce. Maybe I need to find a different pond to swim in.

With the bad economy, Indian programmers and general outsourcing, even Philippinos willing to work for $3 an hour off the freelance web outsourcing sites...well...you got to draw new clients in with less than $100 per hour pricing or new clients won't give you even a glance.

There is a cap on how much one can charge and that cap has been moving downward in the web development field for years. The average charge for web design and development work right now is about $25 per hour based on what I have heard from other web developers and designers.

That's actually pretty good for me given my really low expenses.

If I could get a bunch of clients at $25 per hour I'd be real happy. That's not much mind you but it's way more than I really need.

Lastly my goal is not to continue to be a web developer. I learned what I did to develop my own sites. To have the capability to develop what I wanted, when I wanted it, and how I wanted it. With a view to developing an internet passive income business.

I am offering web development services on the way toward my goal. To put bread and butter on the table. But as soon as I can start making enough to consistently make some decent money I want to then focus on developing those passive income streams. That's my goal.

I will definitely think about what you said Cheryl and I will definitely cut out some of the excess verbiage that you pointed to. Your right in saying that a lot of potential clients don't care to know if I will charge them for every hour, including those I learn in, or just the one's where I am using actual skills I have. I guess I just want to let potential clients know that I will not operate like a lot of web developers do. To get every penny I can from them. I will operate with integrity and honesty. That's more important to me than the pieces of paper commonly called money. I think I need to figure out better ways of getting that across than letting prospective clients in on exactly which hours I will charge for.

I guess that's about it for now. That's all that comes to mind.

Oh...Paris is great if you can stand the snobbishness of the Parisians (or ignore it). Don't bring back any French cheese...they'll confiscate it at the border :).

Thanks again for your valuable input Cheryl. I will definitely be re-reading what you said a few times over to see what I can gleam from it.

Carlos

[carlos123]

Just so you know Cheryl (I don't know if you will see this post given that you are on vacation) I made the change you suggested on the My Rates (http://www.carlosgonzalezconsulting.com/my-rates) page.

I also reworked my introductory specials and increased the price on the 5 page web starter package from $99 to $125 per your suggestion to charge more :). I know it's not much of an increase but I am purposely keeping the price low to hopefully attract new clients.

We'll see if my increased price makes a difference. I suspect it won't in line with what you said but we'll see.

Carlos

[CherylAntier]

Hi Carlos,

Wow you're fast - good for you. (And yes, I'm still on vacation... not in Paris anymore, tonight we're in a town called ChateauRoux - which translates to Red Castle, and I'm guessing its got something to do with a bloody battle, but I won't know til tomorrow and can ask around!)

Anyway, who is your "ideal" client? I mean... do you have a preference for doing specific types of sites (I know you do blogs) but I mean, do you have a particular love, niche, passion or interest? Or a client (besides the ones who can pay you) that you just really enjoy doing a particular site or type of work or in a particular industry?

Or, do you like doing b2b type sites? Or consumer sites? Do you like working for big picture thinkers or linear types?

The reason I'm asking is that now that you're online, and you've raised your prices, let's figure out how to get you more of the people you like working with, and get you some clients fast... Craig's list is one way, but like you said, the competition is fierce. Same thing if you go on the sites like elance, rent-a-coder, guru.com, odesk, etc. And there's absolutely no way you want - or need - to compete with the people on them, because like you say, they'll willing to work for so much less.

But that doesn't mean that I agree with what you said about being able to charge less because your expenses are low. The whole point of having your own business is to create the kind of lifestyle you want - and that's (probably) not going to happen unless you're making better money.

And my other question is, what are you REALLY excellent at? With your business - what's your favorite thing to do that you really shine at?

Can't wait to hear back from you - this is fun!

Warmly,

Cheryl

[carlos123]

Gosh Cheryl,

I am not quite sure what to say...well...that's not true. I guess I am just a bit in shock and awe (hmm...I've heard that term somewhere before...hmmm) as to why you would even bother to give me extensive and valuable input. But hey...if you keep the input coming I will certainly keep listening :).

More comments below yours...



Wow you're fast - good for you.


Aw...shucks...thanks Cheryl :D

I guess the reason I am so fast is that...well...I kinda live in front of my computer. I sit around on the computer so much that sometimes I wonder if my legs are starting to atrophy. I've get to get up more often and walk around some LOL.

I'm not addicted to the Internet, not at all...I can drop it in a heartbeat to hang out with friends or otherwise, it's just that there is so much to do over the Internet and so little time to do it in.



(And yes, I'm still on vacation... not in Paris anymore, tonight we're in a town called ChateauRoux - which translates to Red Castle, and I'm guessing its got something to do with a bloody battle, but I won't know til tomorrow and can ask around!)


The little towns spread out throughout the French countryside have real charm. Great photo taking opportunities and great cheese if you get to visit a cheese making factory. Nothing better than to sit under a real old castle or home, munching on some old cheese and French bread and drinking some deliciously chilled French wine while looking out over the gently slopping French countryside watching the little birds fly around.

I do wish you a continued great vacation Cheryl!



Anyway, who is your "ideal" client?


Hmm...quite frankly and this was not at all planned on my part for me to be here for this purpose...my ideal client is an internet marketing type person or other individual who wants a simple web site done quickly and who likes to get their feet wet at making changes for themselves but not too much.

Someone who doesn't have time to fiddle with WordPress installation and upkeep and who wants something even simpler but very effective. Kinda like my own web site. A header, a footer, navigation, some nice background and lots of text with a web form or two and maybe some MySQL thrown in for good measure.

Limited Javascript, no Flash (it's way overhyped and really not necessary for an effective web site), no video (unless hosted at YouTube or some such), just a good, effective, sharp looking web site that is easy to maintain and who wants a real programmer like me to back them up when they might need me to be there for them.

I am not yet set up to offer simplified blogging using my own code base so for now if a client wanted to set up a blog I would only be able to offer it done through WordPress which I can certainly do but if we are talking ideal...I would not want to have to teach a client how to work with WordPress for a simple blog. It's kinda like using a tank to go and get some bread in my opinion. It's unecessary to use WordPress for such and really might make things more complicated than they ought to be.

I really like using the code base and principles I have developed and used effectively in my own sites to service client needs. Ideally it would be great to have clients who are willing to let me show them what I can do for them without the use of WordPress for non-blogging sites at this point in time.

I like my code. It's efficient. Super easy to work with. Small in footprint. Doesn't use up a lot of server resources. Very secure. Easily modified. In short I like using code I have already developed and used. It's easier on me and less costly to have clients let me use it on their sites.



Or, do you like doing b2b type sites? Or consumer sites? Do you like working for big picture thinkers or linear types?


I have no preference there Cheryl.



The reason I'm asking is that now that you're online, and you've raised your prices, let's figure out how to get you more of the people you like working with, and get you some clients fast...


Sounds great in theory. The reality of being able to get new clients fast might be a wee bit...well...more difficult to realize :D

But I am certainly not disagreeable to being a sort of guinee pig in your hands of input to see if it can't be done LOL.



But that doesn't mean that I agree with what you said about being able to charge less because your expenses are low. The whole point of having your own business is to create the kind of lifestyle you want - and that's (probably) not going to happen unless you're making better money.


Good point Cherly. You are of course correct. People don't much care if I can charge less because my living expenses are so low. That's not a selling point in other words LOL.



And my other question is, what are you REALLY excellent at? With your business - what's your favorite thing to do that you really shine at?


I love working with clients and having them be satisfied with what I produce for them. Customer satisfaction is very important to me. Without it I would cease to do business. Seriously. I want more than just the money. I want to feel good about what I do and the services I provide. Without customer satisfaction I don't end up feeling good about myself and that's not good.

I am really good at client interaction and at listening to client needs. I am an outstanding writer if what others have said about me is to be believed. I am very detail oriented while not losing the big picture.

Let's see...

I am really good at sticking to something until I get it right. I guess you would call that bone headedness of sorts but that can be a good thing in many cases. I won't give up.

I am really good at explaining complicated computer and internet ideas to people who don't understand either. That is why I have been thinking of getting the word out about my web development services through some sort of e-course or other such mechanism. To build a list through it.



Can't wait to hear back from you - this is fun!


I am humbled that you would be willing to interact with me on this against the backdrop of the beautiful French countryside. I mean if I was in your shoes I probably wouldn't even open my computer and otherwise interact with anyone over the Internet for the duration of my vacation. I'd be out taking photos...another favorite activity of mine.

But hey...to each his own I guess. I certainly won't take your fun away if helping me is an enjoyable thing for you to do during your vacation :D:

Carlos

PS. Please know Cheryl that I do not expect your futher input or help in any of this but if you continue giving it to me...I am of course all ears.

[carlos123]

You know I was thinking about what you asked a bit more Cheryl and it dawned on me that my perfect client would be the very person who inspired the design at my web site.

Jimmy D. Brown!

He is really good at what he does and his sites are simple but effective if they are nothing else.

Here's the site that originally inspired my site design (http://www.primeplr.comwww.primeplr.com).

Do you see some resemblence there to my site? The same general site colors. The same gold bar across the site horizontally. The same basic header and footer type of site with the copyright at the very bottom.

At one point my site was looking just like his (the bottom of my site was even reflected like his) until I started playing around and changed it to suit my fancy more. I was using his sites for ideas on simple but effective site design.

Here's the other one I was looking at for ideas and inspiration (http://www.srzone.com/).

I really like his sites. They are super simple...well if you know how to create the graphics for them...but very, very effective. I like that and ideally I would want to create sites like his for others.

Jimmy D. Brown is a great example of my ideal client. Someone who knows what they want and who is not interested in all the uneccessary fancy stuff. Just clean, effective web sites that are easy to maintain.

Carlos

PS. I am not at all affiliated with or involved with anything Jimmy D. Brown has to offer other than one of his free newsletters that I read. I say he is good mainly because what he says makes sense and because other internet marketers that I respect, respect him in turn (though he gets a bit too markety for my tastes sometimes :)).

[CherylAntier]

Hi Carlos...

Interesting what you said about your ideal client. Have you thought about approaching Jimmy (who is a very nice guy), and talking to him about doing a joint venture? He has his fingers in many different pies... and one of them is helping people get online quickly... and part of that, of course, is getting a website (or blog) up fast - without all the bells and whistles, one that's clean and does what it's supposed to... Your prices are good... he's got lots of things to sell, and he is always looking for a new venture... And the worst that could happen is that he would say no. But what if he said yes???

And as for the vacation thing... During the last 15 days, I've gotten up early in the mornings, so I could do an hour's worth of work - because I want to, not have to... Then after a leisurely breakfast with my husband, we'd head out to play tourist... I've done the Eiffel tower, a cruise down the Seine, Notre Dame, the Louvre, the Musee D'orsay, the Pantheon, five or six other churches, including the one in St. Denis with the graves of Marie Antoinette and several Louis', the Moulin Rouse, Montmartre (where I discovered a fabulous singer who I think is going to become a big star), watched a group of dancers doing the Michael Jackson thing - the one that's big on YouTube right now, so I filmed this one... let's see... Versailles... well, you get the idea... So I really am vacationing. And then, when we get back to our hotel after 8 or 9 hours of a feast for the eyes and the soul, I unwind by getting back online... it's been a blast! (I love vacations...)

Anyway, back to you. Before you approach Jimmy... (and I'm totally serious about this), think about what you want... Clients yes... but more than that... How many clients could you handle at one time, and still get everyone's work done on time? What would be involved after you get those sites done? (Do you maintain the sites or have anything to do with them when they're done? Figure that out too...) How long would it take you to do a site? Five sites? Ten?

Then think about what your offer would be to Jimmy... what would he get out of the deal? Why would he be interested?

And what would your new clients get? Again, think total offer... put a value on all of it. (As far as bonuses go, Jimmy would undoubtably have some ideas on that...) But spec out everything a client gets - go into detail - because not all of us understand the value of that stuff...

When you've done that, you've got your joint venture offer - polish it up a bit, and write him an email - or call him. If you're not comfortable doing that out of the blue, ask someone to give you an introduction.

I'll be happy to go over your offer and make suggestions - and although I don't know Jimmy really well, I'd be more than happy to introduce you. If your offer is worthwhile, would bring value to his list, and would give him an additional stream of income as well... it sounds like it would be a win/win situation, and who knows what could happen next?

That's one idea... I'm sure we can come up with more - because something else I don't recommend is doing just one thing - whether it's marketing yourself, building your business or creating income. My grandmother used to say, "If you put all your eggs in one basket, you'd better learn to like scrambled eggs with bits of shell in them."

Talk to you soon!

Warmly,

Cheryl

[carlos123]

Hi Cheryl,

Great to hear from you again.

Your description of your French vacation sure brings back a lot of memories. I probably stepped on the very same cobblestones in the very same places you have visited. What a small world it seem like sometimes!



Interesting what you said about your ideal client. Have you thought about approaching Jimmy (who is a very nice guy), and talking to him about doing a joint venture?


I've actually thought of approaching another internet marketer about doing some sort of joint venture. Where I would provide them with e-course material and allow them to use my e-courses to give valuable content to their subscriber list while allowing me to put my services and web site before his subscribers or some such arrangement.

I just haven't followed through with that yet.

Never even thought about approaching Jimmy. In part, for me, it's like approaching the President of the United States only in this case little ol me would be approaching the President of Internet Marketing. Mind you I don't think that would be a problem for me in that I have also done work approaching big wig executives at big corporations and calling on them over the phone to set sales appointments for salespeople with them. So I could call him.

But usually...calling on such persons is not...well...as easy as calling my mother LOL.

Mostly it's just never even dawned on me that he might want to work out something with me. I've always assumed I guess that someone of Jimmy's stature in the Internet marketing world already has everyone he needs for whatever he needs them for.

A perfect angle to approach him on would be to thank him for the inspiration for my web site LOL.

I can see where his subscribers are a whole slew of perfect clients for me though. Hmm...I'll have to put something together as a joint venture proposal just for him.

That's very gracious of you to offer to review my proposal before I submit it to him Cheryl.



How many clients could you handle at one time, and still get everyone's work done on time?


Ahh...now that's a much bigger problem than approaching Jimmy Cheryl. Realistically I don't think I could take on more than about 4-5 clients per week initially. Not if I was to devote myself to getting what they want done quickly and to give them the kind of excellent customer service I want to give them.

I mean maybe I could take on a whole lot more. Especially once I work out the kinks in my system of creating efficient, mean, and fast web sites that are easier to maintain than a similar one created through WordPress.

But for now I think 4 or 5 per week would be about it.

Of course if clients wanted to use the basic template I have on my own site I could handle 4-5 per day never mind per week. It's the graphic creation that really slows thing to a crawl. I must go back and forth with a client to get them to explain to me exactly what they want their site to look like and I must give them some mock ups first before I go off and actually start creating and coding their site. This up front time which is necessary is what takes the most time. The coding and creation of the actual site once the graphics and overall look of a site are out of the way is a piece of cake and not time consuming at all in comparison.

Mine is a service whereby I create a fully customized, non-template site for my clients. So the sites I create are not cookie cooker stuff. They are unique at least in the graphics and overall look and feel (along with the content of course).

Maybe I need to get away from this and go find me a good templating site that will allow me to offer sites to more clients through the use of such templates but then again...that would make my service almost like an assembly line which I don't like. I like the personal touch where I interact with a client to give them what they want and where I have a chance to be creative in the proposed look and feel of a web site.

I am not opposed to using templates. I just don't want to become a cookie cutter web developer.



What would be involved after you get those sites done? (Do you maintain the sites or have anything to do with them when they're done? Figure that out too...) How long would it take you to do a site? Five sites? Ten?


Excellent questions Cheryl. I'll have to think those through. I can see right now that I have been winging things too much. I need to batten down the answers to these questions. For sure.



Then think about what your offer would be to Jimmy... what would he get out of the deal? Why would he be interested?


Also a good question. I don't think I could offer him a cut of my pay since my charge is still relatively low but also because making more money might not motivate Jimmy as much as something else.

Maybe I could offer him some intangible benefits. Like being able to offer a professional class e-course to his subscribers making himself look better in the process and solidifying that base of his subscribers all the more to stick with his newsletter or something like that. A benefit that is not directly tied to his making more money per se. God knows I can use all the money myself even if my expenses are real low LOL.



And what would your new clients get? Again, think total offer... put a value on all of it. (As far as bonuses go, Jimmy would undoubtably have some ideas on that...) But spec out everything a client gets - go into detail - because not all of us understand the value of that stuff...


I will have to do that Cheryl.



When you've done that, you've got your joint venture offer - polish it up a bit, and write him an email - or call him. If you're not comfortable doing that out of the blue, ask someone to give you an introduction.

I'll be happy to go over your offer and make suggestions - and although I don't know Jimmy really well, I'd be more than happy to introduce you. If your offer is worthwhile, would bring value to his list, and would give him an additional stream of income as well... it sounds like it would be a win/win situation, and who knows what could happen next?


That's very gracious of you to be willing to introduce me Cheryl. If you don't mind me asking what contact have you had with Jimmy before? Would he know who you are?

Let me work on a proposal some Cheryl. I'll post back when I have come up with a potential win/win for both me and Jimmy (or anyone else caring to do a joint venture with me on this).

I doesn't have to be with Jimmy per se. It can be any internet marketer I guess since it has become evident to me in this thread that my ideal client is exactly the kind of person who is listening to internet marketers and needs a fast, efficient, and small web site to get their internet business ideas off to a great start.

Carlos

[carlos123]

Let me run this by you first Cheryl before I go off to spend time writing up nicely and to turn it into a proper and profesional looking proposal for Jimmy (or any other internet marketer who wants to join me in a joint venture).

Here's what I am thinking in brief.

A base series of 20/30 (maybe less) lessons on how to create a web site using HTML, CSS, and PHP. Efficiently, quickly, and with minimum fuss.

The lessons will focus on using my source code object files which will greatly simplify the process. I mean to the point where the simplicity of it will be something within the reach of anyone to do.

In other words I will have written most all the source code necessary to create a web site of the kind like mine is. All a user will have to do is call various functions that will generate the desired page for them such that they can generate a web page with 6 lines of calls to my powerhouse functions (as an example).

It will be a bit more involved than that in that custom headers and footers will need to be indicated and such but it won't be complicated at all. And completely centered on catering to the needs of his suscribers to get simple, efficient web sites up quickly. My lessons will take them by the hand and show them how to do everything one simple step at a time.

They can have custom headers/footers and graphics created by me or any other web developer of their choice. Or they can create their own.

The source code will be made available to anyone who pays me for a license to use it and do whatever they want with it with the only exception being that they cannot seperate the code from the copyright that comes with it nor can they alter the copyright. That's it. Other than that they can do whatever they want with it on as many sites as they like. Using my lessons as a tutorial on how to do things.

The license to use my source code will cost $50.

I will likely want to make available a seperate course on creating graphics using the GIMP (a photoshop like program) that I will charge something for as well though I don't know how much that would be. Maybe $100.

The GIMP is free open source software by the way. My lessons on the GIMP will be way different than the usual stuff found on the Internet. The usual is outdated, hard to follow, incomplete, or othewise not very user friiendly. I know...I've seen most of the tutorials out there. Very frustrating to get through them when one is just learning to use the GIMP.

Or they can pay me to create the web site for them using my normal rates or specials.

The base lessons can be added to his newsletter, one lesson per issue, put together into an e-book or a report or incorporated into anything else that he would want to incorporate them into...his choice.

In a sense his using my lessons and promoting them to his subscribers will enable him to have PLR rights to those lessons. But just him. No one else.

These lessons will not be offered this way to anyone else for one year after he starts promoting them. He will be the first and only one able to offer them.

My only requirement would be that a small link to my site would be included in the lessons giving me credit as the author of the lessons. And that a little blurb be included about the $50 license when appropriate in the course of the lessons.

What do you think overall Cheryl? Does this sound like a win/win for both of us?

Mind you this is very preliminary but it's what I have in mind so far.

Some among his subscribers will eat these lessons up and build their own sites off my code base. Some will want me to build the sites for them. Some won't do anything. But if I get a combination of 5 new customers paying for the source code with some having me build websites for them every week it will be worth it for me to do this. I can do very well on the money that will come in through 5 such new customers per week.

For me money is truly not an end but only a means. I have other things in life that interest me far more and I think making $500-1000 a week is more than enough for me.

In short I will span the gap between the principles that Jimmy espouses on how to succeed on the Internet and the nuts and bolts needed to create an actual web presence web site. I will become a web developer to an internet marketing guru's subscribers LOL. Taking care of them and otherwise helping Jimmy to help them succeed in line with the things he teaches them.

Anyway something along the lines of that described above might be doable.

If anyone else has any input on this please pipe up and let me know.

Thanks.

Carlos

[Regina]

Carlos - great topic! I have to add my 2 cents here as well :)

Having a service like Wahmcart.com let's me know just how much merchants actually use paypal. I have to say that 95% of my customers utilize paypal only although they have the option to use both or either one (merchant account and/or paypal) AND the fact that those who are doing great in business are generating nice income by using Paypal.

I've had my run-ins with Paypal too but nothing like you experienced. Let us know how everything works out for you.

[carlos123]

Hi Regina,

Yes...this is turning out to be one of the better threads I have participated in here. Great input and interaction so far. Lots of good learning going on. I like that.

Regarding PayPal...I am not surprised at all that 95% of your customers chose PayPal. I mean a lot has to do with how your payment options are presented, the kind of products you sell, and so forth but overall I think a very high percentage would use PayPal if given the option regardless. Why?

I mean aside from those relatively few who absolutely insist on PayPal I think the biggest reason is probably because most people are more familiar with PayPal than any other payment solution.

Does that mean however that they absolutely won't use another payment solution? No it doesn't.

It just means they are more familiar with it and will choose it more often than other payment solutions in the way you and I might chose a comfortable shoe. It's comfortable.

If it's presented.

But I bet if you and I were presented with a different payment option, only a different payment option, to pay for something from Jimmy D. Brown or even Lynn Terry here other than PayPal that you and I would figure out a way to pay for what they are selling. Assuming we could afford it. Using their preferred payment option. Personally I wouldn't care if I had to go down to the store, buy an envelope, go to the post office, buy a stamp, write a check, put it all together in an envelope and go find a postal outlet to mail it through LOL. If I want to buy something I am going to buy it. I don't care what form of payment option is presented to me.

Personally I don't care at this point if I lose customers because they might not like my payment options without PayPal. Not in view of the fact that I only need a good 5 web development clients per week to make a very good living and many such clients will use me again for repeat business. PayPal or not.

In the pool of possible clients that comprises the entire U.S. internet presence I believe I can find at least 5 clients a week that don't care about whether I offer PayPal or not (once I get properly set up). So I will use whatever payment solution works for me and those 5 clients.

I honestly can't handle more than about 5 new clients a week so why would I want to jump through PayPal's ridiculous hoops just so I can say that I offer PayPal? Makes no sense to me.

After thinking about it long and hard I think I will just offer the ability to pay by echeck and banking bill pay (which sends a check to me) as my main forms of payment options. I think that will be plenty. Sure I may have to market myself a bit more intially but like I said....the pool of potential clients is HUGE. I can't handle more than a teeny weenie fraction of them.

Even if I wanted to. I just can't do it.

If I was selling widgets for $10 each and setting up to sell them almost automatically from my web site that would be different but I sell web development services. Services that take a lot of my time and prevent me from being able to service more than a tiny fraction of potential customers.

It will definitely be interesting to see how all this plays out. That's for sure.

Carlos

PS. Incidentally I am almost ready to get set up with Amazon Payment Systems which is essentially the same thing as PayPal with respect to the credit cards they accept though their terms of service are much more reasonable and their customer service is much more responsive to me than PayPal ever was. I just have a question or two that I am waiting on an answer from them on before I am fully able to offer that as a payment option too. PayPal does not deserve my business and I will do everything in my power to not use them (I changed my mind about considering them again :)). Especially if I don't have to. There are a lot of people who feel even more passionate about this than I do.

[CherylAntier]

Hi Carlos and Regina,

First, I agree with Regina about PayPal - It's the only shopping cart I use, because I've found 99% of my customers either use it, or have heard of it, and therefore are willing to pay me (especially first time customers) using it - because they trust it. My initial deposits from clients run in the neighborhood of $500 to $5,000 - and I've never had a problem with PayPal, other than having to jump through hoops once a year or once every couple of years, because I live in the EU.

One suggestion I would make for you, when you launch and you know you're going to start having more money deposited in your account at once - such as for a launch, call them and let them know. I've found that solves the red flag problem - before it becomes one.

You've done a very good job of thinking things through and looking at the "mechanics" behind your business - getting your back-end and system stuff put into place before you start bringing in new clients - or working on your joint ventures - is going to position you to run a profitable and successful business.

I like what you're putting together.

One thing that caught my eye is... let's see... what did you say... (hmmm...can't get the quote thing to work. Ah, technology...) Okay... you said: "...Maybe I need to get away from this and go find me a good templating site that will allow me to offer sites to more clients through the use of such templates but then again...that would make my service almost like an assembly line which I don't like. I like the personal touch where I interact with a client to give them what they want and where I have a chance to be creative in the proposed look and feel of a web site. I am not opposed to using templates. I just don't want to become a cookie cutter web developer..."

Have you thought about offering different levels of service? For example, I remember when I was starting out... I got so frustrated with the technology behind the Website building stuff that I don't even remember how many sites I started - and never finished.

So you might want to do some lurking on forums - this one, the Warrior's Forum - others where there are internet marketers. You could also use Survey Monkey to do a survey and ask your potential target market, or post a poll on your blog... Especially people who are just starting out - see what they're saying - and ask them what they want... it might be you'd find you have a market for those template sites.

People who would be the first ones into your "marketing funnel" - although I see that as an outdated term (note to self finish that darn report when I get home) - and who just want a way to get online quickly, get their feet wet, and start making some money... Many of them would probably become long-term customers of yours - because they'd want the more sophisticated (and appropriately higher-priced) site the next time and the next time and so on...

The other advantage I see for you with this as a base model - is that you can create more of them faster - thus giving you a good foundation of income - where you're not limited to the 4 or 5 customers a week. And with that - you would be able to provide valuable support for Jimmy's customers - or any other internet marketer, as you mentioned above.

So as I see it, you've got 3 possible levels of service - the template - for the "I just want to get it done, and get it up on the web" people...

Then you've got the more customized sites - for the DIY'ers who can buy a license to use your code, and you provide the training necessary - maybe on a monthly membership site? Where you could have videos, pdf files and even audio mp3s perhaps, for people to learn the nuts and bolts behind it...

And finally, you've got the customized "I do everything for you" premium service - perhaps even for those people who are new to the field, but also appealing to those who have "been around the block" and want someone to build the sites around their markets, niches or sub-niches, so they can concentrate on the big-picture money-making end of things... Did I miss anything?

And with this business model, it sounds to me that as you continue to fine-tune it and add in the rest of the details, you'd be in an excellent position to approach established internet marketers - Jimmy or anyone else - and offer your services as an important- and necessary component - to help their customers succeed.

Plus, you'd be able to scale your business so that as demand grows, you can begin either outsourcing, or hiring people who you can train to create sites to meet demand.

One suggestion I'd make is that you start documenting processes now... start creating your training stuff as you go along. For example, with the next site you build, you can use jing - it's a fabulous free screen capture program - that lets you take snapshots of your Website, or do up to a five minute video... and it works with both mac and pc's. So as you're building your next site, think about what you'd need to tell someone to teach them how to do it... And just do it. When you're planning your next site, write down the steps... And do some audio recordings.

You can always polish them later - but if you start preparing your training materials as you go - not only do you stay out of "overwhem" when you start getting customers knocking on your door... And it won't be so overwhelming to think about having to suddenly start putting a training program together.

An additional advantage is that you'll be able to repurpose the training materials in so many different ways to help you market to your customers...

For example, there are lots of internet marketing giveaways every year - in fact, now that I think about it, there are a two or three well-established, reputable ones coming up for the holidays...

They might be an excellent way for you to begin to position yourself and establish your credibility...

Offering a couple of training videos for example, or a free report... would give you a fairly painless and simple way to start building your list quickly.

Anyway, there's my 2 cents worth... If I missed something, or you've got other questions, just ask.

So when were you in France? It sounds like you love it here too... When I was a kid, I always dreamed of traveling and having a passport filled with stamps... Of course, now that the European Union is one big happy country (more or less) there are no more borders, so no more stamps in my passport, but at least I'm living the first part of my dream!

One last thing - don't worry about becoming a gazillionaire - Don't work for anyone else's dream but yours... If your goal is to make $500 to $1000 a week - which is certainly doable - then that's fabulous - go for it! That's a good dream, but most importantly, it's yours... And that's what having your own business is all about.

I won't be online for the rest of the day, as we're now going to head through the Massif Central, and head back home. But when I'm online Monday or Tuesday, I'll look for you! Have a fabulous day! And really, really good job on thinking through what you want your business to look like. I'm sure other people will also have some great input and I'm looking forward to reading more!

Warmly,

Cheryl

[carlos123]

Good morning Cheryl (I read your post late last night but decided to wait till this morning to answer)!



First, I agree with Regina about PayPal - It's the only shopping cart I use...


I would highly suggest Cheryl that you at least consider adding an alternative. Trust me there are people who are absolutely vehement in their not wanting to use PayPal no matter what. Much more passionate about this than me. You'll never know if some of these people came to your site, saw what you had to offer, only the PayPal option, and then...well...decided to just keep on walking.

For now I am content offering just e-checks and a few other payment options without PayPal. Even if that means that some won't buy from me because I don't offer PayPal, let's say 25% won't (which is way higher than it probably is...but let's just say the percentage is that high), that leaves me the other 75% to reach out to. Among those 75% I think I can find a measly 4-5 per week to use my services. I'm okay with that.

Just as you do not know how many are turning away because you only offer PayPal I won't know how many are turning away because I don't. In your case you will continue along happy with your only payment option being PayPal and in mine I will happily go along making my 4-5 clients per week.

Incidentally the hoops that PayPal wanted me to jump through were probably much greater than any that you have had to jump through. They froze my account once because I was on some kind of list. A list they wouldn't tell me anything about. I was kind of tried in absentia, deemed worthy of having my account frozen, not told anything about what this list was, required to send them all kinds of intrusive information, and then I wasn't even guaranteed that they would listen...assuming I could even get any kind of response from them to discuss the whole issue. Imagine if banks operated on that basis and froze accounts on the basis of a nebulous list of some sort that customers names supposedly showed up on? We'd have a near revolution against banks! Instead, with regard to PayPal, we fall into the trap of thinking that such things happen to others and that they will never happen to us. Until...well...maybe it happens to us. Until we become one of the nameless victims of PayPal. If we are only using PayPal our business will go down the drain literally overnight. Best to have an option in place to give clients more choice and to safeguard ourselves against that possibility. Rare...yes...but it could happen. I hope it never does happen to you Cheryl but it could. Just saying.



You've done a very good job of thinking things through and looking at the "mechanics" behind your business...


Thanks Cheryl!



I like what you're putting together.


Wonderful to hear!



Have you thought about offering different levels of service?


I hadn't thought of that. Mostly because I have been focused on being successful in just getting people to try me out first :). Although I might have some decent ideas regarding the overall things I have in mind the reality is that right now I am just looking to put bread on the table.

It's an interesting idea Cheryl.



For example, I remember when I was starting out... I got so frustrated with the technology behind the Website building stuff that I don't even remember how many sites I started - and never finished.


Just the kind of client I can work with :).

I've been looking at templates a bit and the problem with them is that they often come with restrictive licenses as to what I can and cannot do with them. I'm not sure I can offer them as part of a service I offer to others and get paid for. It's not like I can just offer them to others freely as part of my deals to them directly.

I will have to build up a few templates of my own and perhaps offer those. Or perhaps work out a deal with a top graphic artist that can create the header and footer graphics for me on behalf of my customers or even offer header and footer templates to chose from that could be plugged into any number of different site layouts. Not sure.

The header and the footer are the biggest time consumers. The rest is really a piece of cake and something I could quickly whip together.

I'll have to run that by some graphic artists I have called on (to see about working out a joint venture with them) to see if they would be willing to work with me to provide just the header and footers. I will have to increase my prices of course to compensate them fairly and still make what I want to make from all this. The biggest benefit to me is that it will save me lots of time allowing me to service more clients. While I can definitely create graphic headers and footers I am not the fastest graphic artist around. It's not my strong point at least not yet.



Then you've got the more customized sites - for the DIY'ers who can buy a license to use your code, and you provide the training necessary - maybe on a monthly membership site? Where you could have videos, pdf files and even audio mp3s perhaps, for people to learn the nuts and bolts behind it...


Hmm...that's a thought Cheryl. Hadn't thought of that either!



And finally, you've got the customized "I do everything for you" premium service - perhaps even for those people who are new to the field, but also appealing to those who have "been around the block" and want someone to build the sites around their markets, niches or sub-niches, so they can concentrate on the big-picture money-making end of things... Did I miss anything?


Nope you pretty much covered the potential client types. Bear in mind though that even in a best case scenario the number of clients I can handle is limited by the lack of being able to service more clients other than what I can fit into the space of time given to me in a week.



And with this business model, it sounds to me that as you continue to fine-tune it and add in the rest of the details, you'd be in an excellent position to approach established internet marketers - Jimmy or anyone else - and offer your services as an important- and necessary component - to help their customers succeed.


So much for getting immediate clients rolling LOL. Yes...eventually I would be in a sweet spot for sure Cheryl.



Plus, you'd be able to scale your business so that as demand grows, you can begin either outsourcing, or hiring people who you can train to create sites to meet demand.


Yes...there are a whole slew of Philippinos, really great folks by the way, who would eagerly get on board to program what I need for my growing list of clients. I know someone in the Philippines who is outsourcing herself through one of those free lance places. A really nice mother who operates in integrity. I am sure she knows a number of others who would jump at the chance to work with me and who would be eager to be trained in what I would need done. If the way she writes English is any indication of her English language skills she can probably speak English real well too.



One suggestion I'd make is that you start documenting processes now... start creating your training stuff as you go along.


Already doing that...great suggestion though. Last night I was working some on making my source code more understandable to non-programmers. I'd like to post an example if getting input on something like that is workable on this forum which is really more about internet marketing. Not sure if people on this forum would be interested in giving me input on things like that as I work them out.



Offering a couple of training videos for example, or a free report... would give you a fairly painless and simple way to start building your list quickly.


That's a great idea Cheryl. I could definitely whip up some report or PDF or something like that and offer it for free use by internet marketers as long as there is a link back to my site. Maybe something like that could even go all viral on me.



Anyway, there's my 2 cents worth... If I missed something, or you've got other questions, just ask.


Thanks Cheryl. Much appreciated. Right now it's not so much questions that I have...it's more that I need input on the material I am putting together to see if it truly is easier to understand and easier to work with than WordPress for example. I mean I believe it is but I have to bear in mind that I am a programmer and that understanding my own way of doing things and my source code comes as easily to me...almost...as breathing. It may not be that way for others.



So when were you in France? It sounds like you love it here too...


I lived in Europe when I was in high school. My dad was transferred to Europe to help work on the Fiesta car that Ford came out with quite a few years ago. Germany at first for one year then Spain for two after that.

I absolutely HATED it for the first 6 months. No McDonald's like I was used to...the culture was just so different. Then in a way I don't quite understand I fell in love with Europe. I mean in love with it. I loved everything about it and when it came time for me to return to the States for my college education I couldn't stand the thought of coming back.

My wife and I also went on vacation to Paris and France a few years ago as well. It wasn't the same as it was though. The people seemed to have become much more snobbish in Paris at least.

The two years I lived on the island of Palma de Mallorca while in Spain were some of the best years of my life. Not a care in the world (or so it seems from the vantage point of my present life LOL), money to spend given to me as an allowance from my parents, sailing, horse back riding, hiking, snorkeling, you name it. It was great.



One last thing - don't worry about becoming a gazillionaire - Don't work for anyone else's dream but yours... If your goal is to make $500 to $1000 a week - which is certainly doable - then that's fabulous - go for it! That's a good dream, but most importantly, it's yours... And that's what having your own business is all about.


I'll say Amen to that!

Thanks again for your input Cheryl. Safe journey home.

Carlos

[carlos123]

Hi guys (I guess I should say gals :D),

I am waiting to get input on whether I can freely get input from members of this forum generally about the lessons I propose to create to enable me to enter a joint venture with others but until I get input on whether that would be acceptable here...I figured it wouldn't hurt to get input from those of you who have given me input on this thread on the following e-course lesson schedule.

It's tentative but I think it covers most of what is required to successfully create and put up an effective web presence.

E-Course Lesson Schedule (make sure you scroll down the box below to Lesson 13):



Lesson 1: Overall process of displaying web pages.
* browser.
* web server.
* HTML, CSS, PHP, and JavaScript.
* databases and FTP.
Lesson 2: Your own domain.
* how to pick a domain name.
- dashes, dots, and extensions.
* registering a domain through a registrar.
Lesson 3: Hosting your domain
* features to look for in a web host.
* things to watch out for.
Lesson 4: Basic index file to generate web pages.
Lesson 5: Creating web page content.
* simple text files with some HTML and CSS statements.
Lesson 6: Instructions to work with the index file.
* adding new pages.
* deleting pages.
* taking down pages temporarily.
Lesson 7: Using CSS to control content presentation.
* what is CSS?
* live site examples from my web site.
- link to sandbox on my site where I visitor can change the look
of my entire site instantly through changes to my CSS.
Lesson 8: Using an FTP program.
* domain name, user name, password, and port.
Lesson 9: Creating a web page header and footer.
* link to fuller lesson with images at my site.
Lesson 10: Using a web page background image.
* link to fuller lesson with images at my site.
Lesson 11: Using a main content background image.
* link to fuller lesson with images at my site.
Lesson 12: Accepting online paymemts for your services or goods.
Lesson 13: Effective strategies for getting site visitors quickly.


What is neat about this lesson schedule is that several of the lessons will require readers to come to my site to see a more fuller explanation with images or live sandbox ability to try out what I am talking about at my site.

Increasing traffic to my site and increasing the possibility that someone will use my web development services.

One problem I see though. If I let people pay me for a license to use my source code in whatever way they want including the ability to freely share it with others....well...after the first sale to a closely knit subcriber list there will be no need to have others interested in my source code to pay for it. Since members of the list will be able to share it freely LOL.

Perhaps I should give away my source code freely and thereby increase the value of these lessons exponentially. Making them even more popular focusing instead on getting backend sales from those hiring me to create their web sites for them or selling more in depth lessons on using the GIMP to create great web graphics. Or otherwise figuring out what else I can sell those who take my lessons.

I think it is safe to say that if some internet marketers or even one big one like Jimmy D. Brown take me up on using these lessons to provide greater value to their subscribers while indirectly allowing me to offer web development services to their subscribers through my site...that I will be able to probably double what I charge right now and still make out like a bandit. I will have such an increase in site visits by pre-qualified site visitors who might need my type of service that even charging twice will still leave me with enough new clients to more than offset the loss of those who might not like my higher prices.

Again please know that I don't expect continued input from you all indefinitely till this joint venture idea is fully fleshed out, God knows you all have been gracious enough in giving me the input you have already but, if anyone has additional comments on my proposed lesson schedule...it would of course be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Carlos

PS. I've already written Lesson 1 and can probably create an average of one Lesson a day until finished with all 13.