I Saw My Competitors' Websites...Now I'm Depressed

Has this happened to any of you? I knew by the numbers that my niche was quite competitive, but I forged ahead, researching and finding keyword phrases in Market Samurai that had lower competition and decent traffic. I started tracking my ranking for some of these keywords after posting articles and blog posts optimizing for them.

I was feeling like I was moving in the right direction. I could even see the effect of my efforts in keyword rankings. But today, while I was using Comment Kahuna to post comments on relevant blogs, I saw several of my direct competitors and it scared the heck out of me. I don't know why, exactly. But I just automatically assume their stuff is better than mine. It's probably because I'm so new at this, I don't know. But suddenly it feels like the wind has gone out of my sails, like I'll never be able to compete with these other slick-looking sites.

I'm sure this will pass. Any advice until then?

Thanks.

Ken

I don't know if this helps you, but yes, it happens to me from time to time. I think my site looks amateurish, my wordpress theme sucks and my writing is boring. ;-)

After some time I just get over that feeling and go on doing whatever I was doing. What also seems to help is that I try to focus on my "brand", i.e. what is unique about my site and my approach.

Whether their sites are better than yours or not is irrelevant.

If you outrank them, few people will ever see their site.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ken Theriot

But suddenly it feels like the wind has gone out of my sails, like I'll never be able to compete with these other slick-looking sites.

---

Please recall that two of the most popular sites on the Net are Google and Facebook. Go look at their site designs. Very plain jane simple, no frills or fancy design stuff, eh?

Assuming that your site is tidy, organized and easy to use (this is important) I wouldn't worry about aesthetic design issues.

Unless you want to. And of course, we all want to! :-)

But do it for fun, not out of desperation etc. Bottom line, nobody really cares about your aesthetics, except you. It's the same for all of us.

Getting back to Google and Facebook, here's something to worry about perhaps. Both those sites very effectively leverage the work of others, it's the key to their great success.

If your site is "Web 1.0", that is, if it's growth is entirely dependent on you personally making pages one by one, that's something to look at. No need to panic, but start thinking about how your site will evolve in to a "Web 2.0" site, where much of the content is generated by users.

They say two heads are better than one. 500 writers is better than one too. If you can engineer a transition from a Web 1.0 site to a Web 2.0 site over time, your content production can skyrocket. Which means of course, lots and lots more pages on your site for the search engines to eat.

More pages equals more search engine traffic, equals more visitors, equals more contributors, equals more search engine traffic etc etc. If you wish to worry, worry about how to get this snowball rolling down the hill.

But wait, I'm getting distracted, and ignoring the most important part of your great post.

You have correctly identified the most important battlefield in this business.

Your own mind.

The truth is, the vast majority of webmasters fail, for one very simple reason. They give up, and quit.

Seeing this obvious fact, it becomes clear that managing our motivation levels is a key issue. We should probably spend half our time on forums like this discussing it.

Everybody has their own unique personality, so it's hard to give a stranger on the Net specific advice in this regard.

It is however easy to make the case that managing motivation is where the game is usually won or lost, so it's important to keep our eyes on this ball, and develop management techniques that work for us. This is not a challenge to be dismissed with quips and cliches.

Quote:

---

Whether their sites are better than yours or not is irrelevant. If you outrank them, few people will ever see their site.

---

I understand what you're saying, and there's some truth there.

But please let us recall, links are key to rankings, and having a quality site is key to getting links. If we don't have a quality site, we're going to have to fight for each and every link all by ourselves, which isn't a great ranking strategy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Engage

But please let us recall, links are key to rankings, and having a quality site is key to getting links. If we don't have a quality site, we're going to have to fight for each and every link all by ourselves, which isn't a great ranking strategy.

---

I agree with everything you are saying.

However, it depends on the site owner's plans and goals.

What I mean by that, some people are out to develope one GI-NORMOUS site that will be their baby and their main money-making machine.

Others are looking to build an army of small sites that generate a few bucks a day through AdSense or ClickBank. For those type of sites, it is rare that they are going to have people link to it on a regular basis.

You are also usually trying to target someone with a problem and offer a solution. They usually are not going to come back and visit the site again and again. They were looking for where to buy "pink bananas". They saw my site ranked #1 in Google for "buying pink bananas". They visited it. I showed them where they could find "pink bananas". Now unless they really, really like "pink bananas", they probably aren't going to come back again.

For sites like this, I'm building my own backlinks. I'm too impatient to wait for people to link to it. These days with software to automate a lot of it or people to outsource to, it really doesn't take that much time.

Quote:

---

Others are looking to build an army of small sites that generate a few bucks a day through AdSense or ClickBank.

---

Ok, I hear you, and this raises an interesting question.

One site, or many?

I enjoy creating new sites, but found I just couldn't keep up with getting links to all of them. Instead of getting links to site A, I would get distracted creating site B.

My outlook now is to have one main site which is broad enough to keep me busy for years, and focus on getting links to that one site. This results in one big site with plenty of links, instead of dozens of little sites with few links each.

I dunno. I'm not claiming this is the "one true way" and am open to hearing your thoughts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ken Theriot

I saw several of my direct competitors and it scared the heck out of me. I don't know why, exactly. But I just automatically assume their stuff is better than mine. Suddenly it feels like the wind has gone out of my sails, like I'll never be able to compete with these other slick-looking sites.

---

It sounds like you lack confidence, or a strong belief in your abiltities. Believe it or not, it happens to us all, at some point in our lives. However, that needs to change before you can move forward. In other words, you need to get your mind right. In that regard, I'm going to recommend you pick up a copy of The Magic of Believing by Claude Bristol.

Read it, apply the principles and get out there and start kicking some butt!

David Jackson

Engage,

You're right. There is no one true way.

I like the many sites thing only because what is in demand today may not be in demand tomorrow.

These sites are generally pretty simple. I never spend more than 1-2 hours putting the actual site up. I will spend longer than that doing the keyword research, finding products, setting up my autoresponder, etc. Still, all in all, maybe 5-6 hours for a site. Often, 3 or less.

As far as backlinking... I rarely do it manually, unless I am going to a PR 8 or 9 site and want to be absolutely certain that the link stinks. Other than that, I do most of it using tools to automate a lot of the process.

For example, last night while watching the Phillies drop another game in pathetic fashion (:(), I built about 400-500 backlinks to each of 6 different sites. It was a mix of social bookmarking, blog commenting, profile backlinks, and creating web2.0 sites. It took about 2 and a half hours of work and 2 beers. I did about 30 minutes of work. The rest of the time was just monitoring to make sure everything was running the way it was supposed to.

I just believe on one thing that don't try to beat others just try to win. No one can defeat you in this field except you your self. They are better stuff but you can do better marketing effort.

Wow! Once again I have learned amazing things here. This time I have to ask about the Web 2.0 thing.

Mike, when you say you created web 2.0 sites, what things did you do to accomplish that? I understand that "web 2.0" means creating a more interactive, user-driven site. But I'm unclear as to, say, what applications you use to created a web 2.0 site.

I am a pretty "big-picture" kinda guy. I get the main concepts, but get a little stuck on the "hows" in this new (to me) and wondrous land of internet marketing.

Thanks again!

Ken

Been there, done that.

I also have seen competitors on blogs and such that I'm posting on. Usually, I just treat them like any other person. If they say something interesting, I agree. Believe it or not, I have gotten 35% of business by having a relationship with my competitors.

Here's what made the difference for me: my passion. If I 100% believe that what I'm doing is for the greater good, then I know it's important that I keep going because there are people who need my product/service and they will find their way to my site.

Besides...did you ever think that maybe your competitors are worrying about you?

Thanks Mike. Yes, we have different mindsets, different relationships with publishing. I'm more "artistic" you seem more mechanical. And that's good, as it allows us to explore and learn.

I'm particularly interested in your link building procedures. If you'd like to be my tutor, perhaps you might address this big picture question.

Could you apply your system to a single site? That is, if you only had one site, could you use your automated technology to get 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 links to that one site?

If yes, perhaps we might quiz you on the details involved?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Engage

Could you apply your system to a single site? That is, if you only had one site, could you use your automated technology to get 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 links to that one site?

If yes, perhaps we might quiz you on the details involved?

---

Yes you could easily use it for one site, 10 sites, 100 sites, whatever. The number of links you can create is really only limited by you.

Whether or not it makes sense for someone to do it on one site, would depend on your ROI for that site.

The stuff I use is not free. I started out using free methods, but then as money started coming in, I reinvested it in tools to save me time.

I could certainly work up an outline of the linkbuilding and off-page SEO work that I do for myself and my clients if anyone is interested.

A lot of it is a process that I have just gotten used to doing. I don't have a written out manual or anything that I follow. I do have a checklist for sites, but most of that would look like gibberish to anyone but me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kentheriot

Wow! Once again I have learned amazing things here. This time I have to ask about the Web 2.0 thing.

Mike, when you say you created web 2.0 sites, what things did you do to accomplish that? I understand that "web 2.0" means creating a more interactive, user-driven site. But I'm unclear as to, say, what applications you use to created a web 2.0 site.

I am a pretty "big-picture" kinda guy. I get the main concepts, but get a little stuck on the "hows" in this new (to me) and wondrous land of internet marketing.

Thanks again!

Ken

---

By Web2.0 sites I mean creating sites on things like Vox, Tumblr, LiveJournal, Facebook, YouTube, Blogger, etc. I build a lot of those kinds of sites with links pointing to the main site that I am working on. Then I hammer the crap out of those sites with backlinks.

As for applications I use, I do a lot of it by hand. I sometimes outsource it for bigger projects. I've used LinkBuilder Pro. Way too buggy. I've started using Web2.0Bot from Incansoft. My results have been a little inconsistant with that one. It is a brand new program, so there are some kinks to work out. I'm sure eventually I'll be able to turn a lot of the work over to that though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikeF421

I could certainly work up an outline of the linkbuilding and off-page SEO work that I do for myself and my clients if anyone is interested.

---

An outline would be greatly appreciated Mike, I'm surely interested. Please feel free to explain what you do for clients, how much you charge, etc.

If it helps to have a specific example to refer to, I have a nature site with about 10,000 links, and am interested in learning if I might be able to leapfrog up to the next level, say 100,000 links.

I have reservations about automated link building, so if that's what you're doing, perhaps you might address the issues involved there?

Whatever you care to share will be read with interest here, thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikeF421

By Web2.0 sites I mean creating sites on things like Vox, Tumblr, LiveJournal, Facebook, YouTube, Blogger, etc. I build a lot of those kinds of sites with links pointing to the main site that I am working on. Then I hammer the crap out of those sites with backlinks.

---

Mike,

When you say you hammer the crap out of those sites with backlinks, do you mean that you are putting links to your main site on those Web2.0 sites?

Ken

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kentheriot

Mike,

When you say you hammer the crap out of those sites with backlinks, do you mean that you are putting links to your main site on those Web2.0 sites?

Ken

---

No, those sites typically only have 1 link to the main site. Maybe 2 if I am linking to an inner page as well. I meant that I build as many links to those Web2.0 sites as I can.

I can share some of what I do. I don’t want to sound too much like a commercial or for anyone to think I am trying to use someone else’s forum to solicit business. With that out of the way…

I’m going to deal just with off-page SEO. On-page is pretty basic, IMO.
For almost all of my clients, I am doing more than just SEO work. I sell my services as a package, so the SEO work is included in the price. The monthly fee is anywhere from $500-$3500/month. For just SEO work, it would depend on the competition and what is needed to get the job done, but the fee I have charged for most people is $400-$1200/month. If it was a really involved project, I would probably charge more.

Another disclaimer… I in no way guarantee any kind of results. Anyone who promises you a #1 ranking in Google is usually full of crap. There are no guarantees when it comes to SEO. It’s like a puzzle you are trying to solve. If you have ever watched the movie Armageddon with Bruce Willis, which I have watched way too many times (it’s one of those movies that if it’s on, I find myself watching it and I don’t know why), I always think of the part where everything seems lost, the government is trying to remote detonate the nuke, and it would appear the drilling operation has failed. Then Harry Stamper gets on the mic and tells whoever is listening at NASA something like, “I have never failed to reach a depth I have aimed for.” Well, that’s how I look at SEO. I have never failed to reach a result I was shooting for, but again, nothing is guaranteed.

A few other things… As of right now, I don’t care about Yahoo, AOL, Bing, Ding, or any other search engine other than Google. Getting a number one ranking on Yahoo is like being King of Turd Island. Google is what almost everyone uses. Plus I’ve never had a site rank high in Google, but not rank high in the other search engines.

As far as automation and worrying about building too many links, etc. It is my belief that when you hear anyone warning you about building links too fast or that automation is bad and you should do everything by hand, it is complete and utter nonsense. I generally find these arguments coming from people who are looking for excuses to be held back. They say that somehow doing everything manually is doing it the “right way”. Or that it’s unethical and black hat to use automated tools. Just complete BS in my opinion.

Does that mean you can’t achieve top rankings without automated tools? No, of course not. If you have all the time in the world and keywords that are only moderately competitive, then go for it. My time is too valuable to me. I have a girlfriend with 2 kids, and we have 2 dogs. One of those dogs is a Siberian Husky. For anyone that has owned a Husky, I am sure you can attest that a Husky most days is like having about 4 kids. If I can find something that takes 10 minutes to do what normally would take me hours to do myself, I am damn well going to use that tool.

Automated tools also don’t take the place of your mind. No matter what tools you are using, you still need to know what you are doing and have a plan to achieve your results.

I do not believe you will get slapped by Google for building links too fast. I do not believe it because I have not seen it. I never hesitate to build links when I can. New site, old site, big site, small site. I don’t care. I have never had a site get punished by Google. Can it happen? I’m sure it can, but I have yet to find the threshold where that happens at. I’ve had sites where I built 500-1000 links a day for weeks at a time. No problems.

Having said that, there are a few things I do to protect myself and my clients, not because I believe in that famous “Google slap”, but because you never know when Google will change the rules. It’s their house. They make the rules.

1. Stay away from things that look suspicious.

2. I always do everything behind proxies. No footprints.

3. I build a lot of linkwheels with Web2.0 properties (Wordpress, Blogger, Vox, LiveJournal, Webs, YouTube, Vimeo, etc.). I still build a lot of links to any main site I am working on, but the majority of the links point to these sites which then point to the main site. (I would say about 70% of the links go to the Web2.0 sites, 30% go to the main site. If the site is 1-2+ years old or older, I go more 50-50.) These sites get tons of links everyday, so I can pretty much point as many links to them as I want without it looking out of the ordinary. Also, I find that these sites will often start achieving a high pagerank of their own. That can be useful for linkbuilding on future projects.

4. Whatever I do, I try to do it on a relatively consistent basis. I don’t build 10,000 backlinks in one day to a site and then build no backlinks again for 2 months. If I am doing socialbookmarking, I do it on a regular basis. A few pages every week.

5. Another thing I do is never target only high pagerank backlinks. I’ve come across people doing this. See rule #1. If a site only had links from PR 6+ sites, that would be a bit odd wouldn’t it? So I make sure to mix in plenty of unranked pages, PR 0, and PR 1 sites as well.

6. But I do target those high PR pages heavily. I forget where I read it, but I came across a report once that related PR backlinks in this way: Think of getting a backlink from a PR 1 site as the equivalent of getting 1000 backlinks from PR 0 sites. And if you get a backlink from a PR 2 site, that is equivalent to 1000 backlinks from PR 1 sites. And so on, and so on. Now I don’t know for sure if those are the exact relationships between them, but from my experience it is probably not far off.

Those are some of the general principles I follow. Now getting into some actual tools I use, techniques, etc…

I believe strongly in forum profile backlinks. I have seen them work. I used to subscribe to Angela’s backlink packets each month. I saw some pretty incredible results immediately. For those that don’t know what this means, it is simply finding message forums with a high pagerank. Then creating a profile there. Most message forums will let you create backlinks on your profile in an About Me section or somewhere else in the profile.

As I said, I used to subscribe to Angela’s monthly packet. That was before I found this amazing little tool called Scrapebox and figured out that I could find as many high ranking forums as I wanted. I currently have a personal list of about 800 PR 4+ vBulletin forums that I use. I have a second list of another 1000, but few on that list have been tested. I don’t know if the forums are still in existence, have an open registration, allow backlinks in your profile, etc.

Here is one instance where automation is a lifesaver. I have recently started using a program called Sick Profile Submitter that will go to each of these forums, create a profile, confirm the email for registration, and stick your links in the profile. I have used other tools for this in the past, but I am really liking Sick’s program right now.

For social bookmarking, I use BookMarking Demon. In the past I used SocialBot, and still like it. BMD is a bit more expensive, but does a lot more. It has automatic account creation, which is a real timesaver. You can load in a bunch of webpages for bookmarking and then schedule it out. So you could have a page bookmarked at 3-5 different sites a day for say the next 10 days instead of hitting all the social sites at once. You can also have it use different profiles while doing this. I have about 60 profiles I use. Another nice feature of of BMD is that you can import profiles. I have a few people who I trade profiles with all the time. So these profiles are bookmarking all kinds of different sites all the time. BMD will also bookmark random sites if you want it to. No footprints. Nothing obvious for Google or anyone else to find.

Blog commenting is something I find extremely boring and tedious. I use Scrapebox for this as well. Scrapebox will find Wordpress, BlogEngine, and Moveable Type blogs relating to any keywords you choose. I could write a whole book on all the things you can use Scrapebox for. It took me a little while to figure it all out, but once I did… Wow. I couldn’t imagine having to live without it.

Now there are those that say they only do blog commenting manually because they want to add something useful to the blog. I just think that is BS. Let’s just admit it. You are trying to get a backlink. You are adding a comment for completely selfish reasons. You don’t care about the conversation on their blog. You want a link back to your site. With very few exceptions, if you couldn’t get a link out of it, you wouldn’t be leaving a comment. So… Scrapebox. Trust me. And no, they have no affiliate program. Believe me. I wish they did. I would sell the crap out of that one.

So while someone else manually submitted their 3-5 comments at blogs, I just submitted 450. Will they all stick? No, but even if just 10% do, I’m still winning. There are some things I do with Scrapebox to ensure that I get a much higher percentage than this of links that stick, but I am not going to go into them here. Like I said, just all the things to do with Scrapebox could be its own book.

One of the great features about Scrapebox that I will mention here is it will go back and check for your links. So about 4-5 days after I run through a blog commenting session, I go back and have it check for my links at all those sites where it successfully posted to. Many are held for moderation, so they won’t show up right away. That’s why I check for them a few days later.
I hate going through the trouble of building links and Google not finding them. There is no guarantee that Google will find them, but you can try to help Google along and increase your chances. I take all the sites where Scrapebox tells me I now have links showing and export their URL’s. Then I load those into BMD for bookmarking.

I will also take those sites, along with my profile links and mash them into RSS feeds. There are free tools out there that will do this for you. For example, www.html2rss.com will allow you to put in any url and it will turn it into an RSS feed. I don’t put them all into one feed. I create many different feeds that then get submitted and pinged with RSSBot (one of the best paid tools you will ever find).

I haven’t even touched on article marketing (which I do a ton of), video marketing, social marketing, or press releases, but this getting pretty lengthy.

Not everyone may agree with all of my methods or opinions, but I have used them. They have worked for me. SEO is not an exact science. The rules can change at any time, and you need to be ready to change too. However, backlinks, backlinks, backlinks is what it has been about for years. I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

If anything on here is against any of the rules of the forum, please feel free to remove this post. I'm not very good at reading or following rules.

I just posted a nice long message here and it's being held for moderation. I guess it was too long.

If it doesn't show up, I saved it :) and can PM it to anyone interested.

Mike,
Any posts with links are usually held for moderation so that's what happened. I just approved all your posts, thanks for your patience. We have to set the forum up like this because it would be a big spammy mess (trust me!).

Quote:

---

I can share some of what I do. I don’t want to sound too much like a commercial or for anyone to think I am trying to use someone else’s forum to solicit business.

---

As I see it, you are answering a direct question from me, which I asked here because I knew your reply would be interesting and informative for all readers, which turned out to be true. Thanks for all the time you put in to addressing my question Mike.

One quick question, which will probably only be useful to me. I don't have or want the Windows OS. Do any of the programs you reference run on the Web or Mac?

I'm going to skip over any philosophical type questions here, to avoid distractions. We can discuss issues like "unethical" and 'black hat" in another thread if anyone wishes to.

On to business...

My general impression is that most blogs use nofollow links in their comment sections these days. Is this your experience, and if yes, how does this factor in your calculations?

Ignoring all the wanna be search engines makes sense to me. I have high rankings for some keywords related to Google Adsense on Yahoo, which is fun to see, but the traffic is minimal.

Quote:

---

I do not believe you will get slapped by Google for building links too fast.

---

I have no firm opinion here, and claim no special knowledge, but when launching some of my sites I've added thousands of links all at once from my own sites, and a friends site, and nothing bad seems to happen.

Quote:

---

I always do everything behind proxies. No footprints.

---

I know what a proxie is, and why they are useful, but not which of the seemingly thousands of proxies are user friendly etc. Advice?

Quote:

---

I build a lot of linkwheels with Web2.0 properties (Wordpress, Blogger, Vox, LiveJournal, Webs, YouTube, Vimeo, etc.).

---

Let's clarify this a bit. You create blogs on the free services you've listed above, and send most of your automated links to these blogs. And then you link from these throw away blogs to your real site. Did I explain that correctly?

Quote:

---

You don’t care about the conversation on their blog.

---

Honestly, I wish this were true for me. One of my main problems is that I care about the conversations too much, and waste a lot of time in them, building other people's sites instead of my own. Like I'm, um, doing right now. :)

Quote:

---

I create many different feeds that then get submitted and pinged with RSSBot (one of the best paid tools you will ever find).

---

Hmm, I need a little RSS 101 class. RSS is a weak area for me. A feed is a document a news reader can read? Where do you submit these? How does it help you? Anything you can share will be an education here.

Quote:

---

However, backlinks, backlinks, backlinks is what it has been about for years. I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

---

That makes sense to me, and I would say from my own stupid experience, and reading webmaster forums for years, that not giving links adequate attention is perhaps the leading webmaster mistake.

On the flip side, the engines are going to have to address the challenge sophisticated automated link building systems present somehow.

This is a very well established pattern which goes back to the very beginnings of the SEO industry.

Clever results manipulating techniques work while they are new. Then the technique is popularized by tools and experts that make it easy for the masses. Then the engines have to respond, the technique is defeated, and the cycle begins again.

The SEO expert industry drives and thrives on this cycle, because it means that their customers have to come back to them again and again, to get the latest inside tools and tricks etc.

Trying to say, automated link building tools devalue the "voting system" that Google hopes to use to measure site quality, and so we can predict that eventually this link based voting system will have to be abandoned. I have no clue what it might be replaced with.

Before we get all moralistic about this, we should recall that Google is the biggest content scraper on the net. They don't ask our permission, they just scrape our sites with automated tools, and use our content to sell their ads. Sometimes Google provides value in return (web results) and sometimes they really don't (image searches).

In any case, they do whatever they want to do. As example, they are trying to scan every book ever printed in to their databases, and it's up to the publishers of these books to negotiate with Google about it. Google started scanning, before they started negotiating.

So, the philosophical situation is rather complicated.

Mike, if you don't know him already, I'd suggest you meet Charles Heflin. http://www.charlesheflin.com/
He has a membership site built around a highly automated social networking system, right up your alley. I was a member for awhile, and Charles seems like a good guy. He asked me to code his system, but I'm glad I didn't, as he wants to explore far beyond my abilities.

If nothing else, I think you would likely benefit from a one month subscription to see if what he has to offer is useful to you. I don't understand these issues well enough to know, but you would.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angienewton

Mike,
Any posts with links are usually held for moderation so that's what happened. I just approved all your posts, thanks for your patience. We have to set the forum up like this because it would be a big spammy mess (trust me!).

---

I can appreciate that. I ran a few forums myself in the past. Every morning I would have to go through and delete the 50 or so porn links that were mass dropped overnight.

Engage,
To answer your questions...

NoFollow, DoFollow... I don't care. I'll take any and all links. I have never had a link that lowered my rankings. Also, if you only put comments on DoFollow blogs, couldn't that be construed as weird and unusual to the search engines?

I like a site called YourPrivateProxy for proxies. I used to use public proxies. Then about a year ago I bit the bullet and bought some private ones. Haven't looked back since. They are 100 times faster and much more relieable.

And yes, you've got the linkwheel idea down. Now I have modified mine though. Some people believe Google has caught on to the pattern. I have seen no concrete proof of that, but I changed up my methods anyhow. My linkwheels are connected in a completely random pattern. I'll share a little secret here too... I throw in all kinds of other links in between the traditional Web2.0 sites. I may throw in a couple of profile links in between instead of just linking Web2.0 site directly to Web2.0 site. Some I create don't even link to anything other then my main site. Basically, there is no discernable pattern. I even confuse myself sometimes trying to keep them straight.

RSS feeds get submitted to RSS aggregators. I think of them like article directories for RSS feeds.

As for the challenge facing search engines with automated tools being used by internet marketers.... I don't know that they will address it anytime soon. The internet has become so huge these days. There are billions of web pages out there. How many are being created by internet marketers using these tools? My guess it is a small, almost insignificant fraction.

And the other thing to look at is these tools are just doing the same thing I would be doing by hand otherwise. I would still be doing the same activities. I probably would just have to hire a team of 8-10 people to do it instead of just doing it myself. That or I would take on far fewer clients and charge a lot more for my time.

Also, just to clarify, some of the techniques I outlined I only do for myself or anyone who is into internet marketing. Most of the people I work with are businesses in the local area. Getting someone to #1 in Google for "Pizza in York, PA" or similar local searches is not nearly as difficult and does not take nearly the effort. A lot of times it takes less than 100 backlinks to get them a top listing for local searches. Then it's on to the next keyword.

Thanks for your ongoing comments Mike, educational.

It looks like all these programs run on Windows, so for me, not a great plan. Just don't have the patience to get involved with Windows. Most people won't have this problem of course.

I don't want to abuse your time. If you'd like to use me as a hypothetical example case to illustrate how you would go about doing SEO work for a client, I will submit my questions for your public review. Or not, that's ok too.

And now the more academic part of the thread.

We aren't really talking about the entire net, billions of pages and millions of sites, but just the first few pages of search results. Google is focused on the first few pages of results for the same reason marketers are, that's where all the traffic is. That's Google's business, the first few pages of results.

When the "links voting system" Google uses to estimate quality is undermined by growing use of ever easier and cheaper automated link building systems, the links voting system will no longer be a guide to quality at the top of the SERPs, and thus of no use to Google, and thus links will be discarded in their algo.

Links will die, and game will then move to some new arena.

This isn't a theory, but part of a well established historical pattern that goes back to the very earliest days of search engines. All the smart folks want to game the rankings system, therefore the rankings system has to continually change to survive.

I don't claim to know where this battle will end, or if it will end. It's Google vs. the SEO industry, and both are worthy opponents.

Seeing this historical pattern, one response could be to make good use of whatever SEO advantage one has today, and use it to drive traffic to mailing lists, thus charting a course out of the SEO rat race.

The ideal SEO strategy would of course be to have enough in house traffic that one doesn't need to worry about what Google may do down the road. I hear Mathew waving from somewhere on the forum. :)

If you'd like to use this space to help us understand how you'd help someone like me generate lots of SEO traffic to a subscribe form, I'm available to play the role of clueless hypothetical client.

Most of the programs I use are Windows based. To be honest, I've never looked into if there was a Mac equivalent or which ones are Mac compatible.

I believe Market Samurai is because it is an online tool rather than a desktop tool. BookMarking Demon might be Mac compatible too, but don't quote me on that.

I haven't made the leap to Mac yet, but I have been tempted at times.

As for the hypothetical workup, I can play along. Do you have a website in particular you want to use? Do you want to use an imaginary site in a real niche? Do you want to create a new site together in some niche as an experiment? You do the content, I do the SEO work? How would you like to do it?

I did find an interesting niche just this past weekend that I was thinking of setting up a site or two around. I'm not sure I would want to reveal it publicly because I don't necessarily want to invite competition to this one. Also I need to do a little more research in it to make sure it looks as worthwhile as I think. A little bit of the info from Market Samurai is not totally adding up.

Quote:

---

To be honest, I've never looked into if there was a Mac equivalent or which ones are Mac compatible.

---

Sure, why would you? Generally, I'm very happy with Macs (not so happy with Apple) but this issue of Net business apps does come up sometimes, and it's probably the primary downside to my limited Mac only office.

Quote:

---

I haven't made the leap to Mac yet, but I have been tempted at times.

---

Seems like you're doing pretty good where you are.

I can understand a reluctance to deal with a 2nd operating system, because that's exactly why I refuse to get involved with Windows. Too many things to keep track of as it is.

Quote:

---

As for the hypothetical workup, I can play along. Do you have a website in particular you want to use? Do you want to use an imaginary site in a real niche? Do you want to create a new site together in some niche as an experiment? You do the content, I do the SEO work? How would you like to do it?

---

Ok, thanks, this is fun. :) I do appreciate the education you are offering here, and hope other readers will tune in and reap the rewards.

If you're willing, let's use a real project as your example demonstration case?

What I'm working on right now is setting up my site (nature-talk.com) to automatically dump all my new content each week in to a weekly newsletter, which is automatically sent to subscribers each weekend. This gives me a weekly deadline, forcing me to keep the new content coming.

So, if you agree, the hypothetical job would be to drive search engine traffic to a subscribe form page(s). One benefit of such a project would be the results could be measured in one number, new subscribers.

So, what information would you request of me the clueless client? I've arrived at your office with a befuddled look on my face, many irrelevant questions, and big dreams of newsletter glory etc. (Trying to get in to character here. :-) )

Now what?

Okay...

I am completely changing my response. Having had more time to think about it, I don't think SEO is the way to go to promote your site. At least not in the typical sense that Internet Marketers think about it. I don't think their is a viable search engine market for the type of site you have. That is not to say that you won't have search engine traffic, but internet marketers are usually looking for those keywords that they can rank for in just a few months and that can bring them a few thousand visitors a month. I haven't done any research yet, but I'm not sure those kind of keywords exist for your type of site. We'll come back to that though.

I would also have some questions for you.

Who is your target market?

What do you think your target market is searching for on Google? Give me some ideas what you think people might search for to find your site. (The answer to this would typically be the starting basis for any keyword research I would do.)

What is your objective with the site? For example, do you want to make a sale, educate the public, drive traffic to something else, etc.

You did mention driving people to subscribe to a newsletter. Is that the only objective?

Also, if you want signups, the site needs some changes. The "subscribe" button and text is just to small. It is not jumping out at anyone. It needs to catch the eye of someone immediately. Also, why should I sign up? What's in it for me? A lot of people like to give away something for free in exchange for someone signing up. Maybe that is an option. You need to entice me though. I'm not feeling like there is anything special I am going to get for signing up for your newsletter that I couldn't get by just coming back to your site at another time.

My philosophy is pretend that a website visitor who finds your site will never find it again. You need to collect their email address on that first visit or they are never coming back.

Another thing I would look at is I like to use the Google Heatmap when designing a site. You can find an example if you Google it and look at the Google images. Basically, what it is showing is where a person's eyes are drawn when they visit a website. For the most part, people view a website similarly to the way they would read a page out of a book. Their eyes are drawn to the top left initially. That is where you need to put some kind of "call to action" for your visitors to entice them then to signup to your newsletter.

Ok, now back to the SEO topic... Your site reminds me of a similar situation I am having with a prospect right now. The last 3 clients I have brought on were an accountant, a pizza shop, and a guy involved in a MLM that he wants to promote. Pretty simple straight forward stuff.

Just recently though, someone reached out to me that I've known for a few years. She has a foundation setup. With this foundation she raises money from our community and takes 1-2 trips a year with about 15-20 people over to Ghana. They build wells, churches, schools, etc. Basically, improving the infrastructure of Ghana.

This is really the first case I have run into where in my mind, there isn't a viable search engine market for this. I could be totally wrong, but I don't think people are searching for "Ghana charities" or "How can I give money to improve the country of Ghana". Now people might be searching for things like "charitable foundations", but those kind of phrases would take a TON of work to rank for and wouldn't necessarily be people that have any interest in improving Ghana.

I think you have a similar case here. People may be searching for things like "nature hikes" that you could target, but those kind of phrases probably have a ridiculous amount of competition. You could very well rank highly for them, but it might take a year or longer.

What we are proposing to this potential client is the same thing I would propose in your case. Social Media Marketing. We are advising she goes with Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube to get the word out about her foundation. She already is involved in things like Rotary and the local Chamber of Commerce. She has plenty of contacts personally. She has been getting the word out about her foundation. Now we want her to point them to a website that will have either a monthly or quarterly newsletter to keep people engaged and coming back. In her case, we're looking at the old phrase, "Birds of a feather flock together." I think Facebook in particular will be a great resource for her. Chances are if someone "likes" her fan page, they will have friends and family of similar interests that will do the same. It will grow from there.

One interesting fact about Facebook, I forget the number of users on there right now (I think it is over 600 million now), but over 50% of the users of Facebook log on everyday.

This is what I would look at for you too. The great thing about having a Facebook page linked to your main site is it gives you a second" chance". If they don't sign up for your newsletter, maybe they will see the Facebook page and become a fan. Through Facebook, you can promote the newsletter signup.

Especially initially, I think you'll find far more traffic through social media than SEO. Maybe you can convince me otherwise.

Wow, that's a great initial consultation Mike. And I almost missed it as I didn't receive the thread update notice. Phew, close one!

Ok, balancing act here. I want to respond to all your questions, and of course I love to talk about my own projects. But let's also try to keep a focus on you, what you can do for clients, and what we can learn from you.

Quote:

---

I don't think their is a viable search engine market for the type of site you have. That is not to say that you won't have search engine traffic...

---

Around 650 unique visitors a day now, mostly from Google of course.

Quote:

---

...but internet marketers are usually looking for those keywords that they can rank for in just a few months and that can bring them a few thousand visitors a month.

---

Hmm... Brainstorming. Does this help? Say I optimized a squeeze page for a keyword, got links to that page, got on first page of results. And then repeated the process, again and again, creating more optimized squeeze pages. An SEO plan?

Quote:

---

I haven't done any research yet, but I'm not sure those kind of keywords exist for your type of site.

---

Ok, just to be clear, I'm not requesting you do a bunch of free work for me, but that we use the thread to give all of us an insight in to how we can learn from you, here, or as clients.

Quote:

---

Who is your target market?

---

Nature lovers.

Quote:

---

What do you think your target market is searching for on Google?

---

I have Statcounter and Analytics installed, and so can see all the keywords being used. At this point, the site is primarily about nature locations and wildlife, so the searches reflect that.

Quote:

---

Give me some ideas what you think people might search for to find your site.

---

Here go, some recent searches.

raising and rescue of squirrels in north carolina
wildcat campground point reyes
Baby Squirrels
horsetail falls oregon
oneonta falls
new nature videos download
caladesi island
Oconaluftee Visitor Center (Milepost 469) picture
boat in camping at tomales bay
little talbot island state park photos
letchworth state park map of park
map of peaks of otter
blue spring state park
big shoals state park
oceans
are killer whales found in the gulf of mexico
oleno state park in florida
Peregrine Falcon
anjana tigers
hubble telescope extraterrestrial life
squirrel youtube videos
cedar key tides
driving directions to alafia state park
killer whales eating sharks
EARTHQUAKE TRAIL
nature talks
all about squirrels
download videos of nature
Planets
blue fawn beagle
uttarakhand nature video download
whale eating kayak
buy a squirrel
blackwater river state park pictures
map of rainbow spring
baby fox squirrel
soundtrack of waves at seashore
how do i add weather to my website
raising and rescue of orphaned squirrels in north carolina
fox squirrel
nature video download
cedar key tide fl
armadillo dinner
gardens
orcas hunting rays and sharks
evolution of species images
little shoals state park florida
video killer whale teach baby seal ice waves
science
maclay gardens map of ravine trail
nature videos
fernandina garden phil
video loop nature download
Oleno State Park campsite photos
killer whales getting iceburgh seals
mexican wildlife
orcas teaching young to hunt video
oconaluftee visitors center
john yeon state park pictures
midget forecast
blackwater state park florida
tomales bay camping
clam digging portland maine
memaloose state park map
universe
peregrine falcon pictures
oleno state park florida map
homosexuality in animals
fox squirrel facts
killer whale attacks on humans in the san juan islands
orcas in gulf of mexico
black hole galaxy
downloan nature videos
chandra sombrero filterui:imagesize-large
outer banks frisbee golf
letchworth state park map
cedar key nwr shell mound
cute polar bear attack email
human evolution
orcas eating on iceberg
Linville Falls roanoke va
cumberland knob milepost
wittenberg trail condition
cayo costa florida nude beach
solar sun pics
future space shuttle
watkins glenn harbour hotel pier camera
First Man On The Moon
waterrock knob visitor center

Quote:

---

What is your objective with the site? For example, do you want to make a sale, educate the public, drive traffic to something else, etc.

---

1) Adsense for now.

2) Get enough traffic to launch a network of nature forums on the site, thus largely automating content creation.

3) Get enough traffic to make it worthwhile to get in affiliate marketing, to diversify beyond Adsense.

4) Introduce my hosting services.

5) Have a career that I enjoy enough that I'd do it for free if I won the lottery.

Quote:

---

You did mention driving people to subscribe to a newsletter. Is that the only objective?

---

The newsletter is part of the overall grand scheme.

I mentioned it as one possible way to limit the scope of our work together in this thread. You know, a specific measurable goal for us to focus on.

Quote:

---

Also, if you want signups, the site needs some changes. The "subscribe" button and text is just to small. It is not jumping out at anyone.

---

I agree completely. Actually I get most of my signups currently from the confirm page on my ezine service, where I have a full page multimedia type ad. But yes, the signup form on the site needs work for sure, I hear ya.

Quote:

---

My philosophy is pretend that a website visitor who finds your site will never find it again. You need to collect their email address on that first visit or they are never coming back.

---

Couldn't agree more.

Quote:

---

Their eyes are drawn to the top left initially. That is where you need to put some kind of "call to action" for your visitors to entice them then to signup to your newsletter.

---

Ok, good plan, I like it. I'll have to design a form that will fit at the top of each article. Bring the form out from behind the hidden panel. Agreed, agreed.

Quote:

---

This is really the first case I have run into where in my mind, there isn't a viable search engine market for this. I could be totally wrong, but I don't think people are searching for "Ghana charities" or "How can I give money to improve the country of Ghana".

---

I'm still not sure what you mean by viable, but a site all about Ghana would seem to bring in folks that are at least interested in Ghana. Perhaps a newsletter could be the mechanism to sort further to find the contributor types? Dunno.

Quote:

---

I think you have a similar case here. People may be searching for things like "nature hikes" that you could target, but those kind of phrases probably have a ridiculous amount of competition. You could very well rank highly for them, but it might take a year or longer.

---

Well, this might help. Nature could possibly be the broadest topic there is, as it includes all of reality. :-) This seems very different, perhaps the opposite, of the small very targeted sites you seem to focus on.

I'm thinking in terms of tens of thousands of pages, tens of thousands of links, tens of thousands of visitors. Low profit topic, requiring high traffic.

Quote:

---

What we are proposing to this potential client is the same thing I would propose in your case. Social Media Marketing.

---

Oh dear, you've hit my biggest weak point. I'm still trying, struggling, to remain open to social sites, but honestly, I seem incapable of understanding what is fun about Twitter and Facebook.

I LOVE forums, as we can have real conversations here, rich with real content. The social sites seem to be mostly tidal waves of little blurbs of nothingness. VERY popular obviously, but not so much to me, Professor Blowhard. :-)

Not to rain on the parade, just full disclosure about the scope of the challenge here. I don't get social sites.

Quote:

---

One interesting fact about Facebook, I forget the number of users on there right now (I think it is over 600 million now), but over 50% of the users of Facebook log on everyday.

---

Clearly that's VERY impressive. Numbers like that are why I'm still trying to be open minded.

All that said, with a little guidance and encouragement I could give Facebook another try, IF I could document some real results. I'm still not convinced anybody actually reads Twitter. :-)

Quote:

---

Especially initially, I think you'll find far more traffic through social media than SEO. Maybe you can convince me otherwise.

---

Hmm.... Let's see.

Well, my impression (correct me if I'm wrong) is that your focus and skill is with SEO. So, if we're going to keep this about you more than me, perhaps we should stick with SEO?

Using SEO to drive traffic to one or more squeeze page signup forms?

To me, this might be interesting for readers, as it would illustrate using SEO to plot an escape from the SEO rat race?

I dunno. I'm open to suggestion and direction. My main goal here is share an interesting conversation where we all get to harvest your insights and experience. I'd guess few readers here, me included, know much about the automated type techniques you are involved in.

Over to you, and thanks. Perhaps we can turn this thread in to sort of a sales tool for you? You know, something you can refer prospects to?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Engage

Perhaps we can turn this thread in to sort of a sales tool for you? You know, something you can refer prospects to?

---

I have a conference call with my business partner in about 5 minutes, so I'll reply to everything a little later tonight.

First of all, I stand corrected. You're getting plenty of search traffic and I'm guessing this site is something you've had up for quite some time. I'd be curious to see some of the stats of your site though. Are people staying and looking around or bouncing after seeing one page? A visitor's time on a website is something that Google says goes into their search engine algorithm. Also, I need to take a closer look at the search terms bringing in traffic, but I'm curious how many of them are bringing people to your site for what they are really looking for or does your site happen to rank well for some terms that maybe it really is not intended for.

Second, I'll tell you a little secret... I HATE Twitter with a passion. Me and the co-owner of my company talk about it all the time. I think it ranks right up there with the pet rock. Having said that, in my line of work, I can't ignore its popularity. Believe me. I wish I could.

As for your quote above, I appreciate the offer, but I really wouldn't most of my prospects to read this. I learned this the hard way. When we first started out we would give clients a detailed plan of what we do as far as SEO goes. I lost two clients because of it. You see their sister's, brother's, uncle's neighbor's kid "knows a lot about computers". So they figured instead of paying us to do the work they could give the plan to their little computer guru who could implement it at a much cheaper cost. Of course having our plan, was really like just having the ingredients to a really good dish without having the whole recipe. So they tried it, it didn't work, then they told me that we didn't know what we were doing. We never got them back as a client.

Now I tell clients that we don't do anything illegal or unethical. That's all they need to know really. What I also didn't realize when I first started out was that these people really didn't care that much how we did what we did. They just wanted to see results.

I don't ask my mechanic how he replaced the head gasket in my car. I just trusted him that it needed to be replaced and he knew how to do it.

Ok... more to come later.

Quote:

---

First of all, I stand corrected. You're getting plenty of search traffic and I'm guessing this site is something you've had up for quite some time.

---

Couple of years, work on the site has come and gone in waves.

Quote:

---

I'd be curious to see some of the stats of your site though. Are people staying and looking around or bouncing after seeing one page? A visitor's time on a website is something that Google says goes into their search engine algorithm.

---

I understand. This is complicated, and I'm not sure how to respond. I can look at Analytics more closely. My best guess is that the bounce rate would be relatively high because...

1) Lots of image searches. Google loads the page in an frame, but the searcher grabs the image directly from Google's link instead.

2) The site is not a tutorial, where you read a series of pages on a single subject.

Quote:

---

Also, I need to take a closer look at the search terms bringing in traffic, but I'm curious how many of them are bringing people to your site for what they are really looking for or does your site happen to rank well for some terms that maybe it really is not intended for.

---

Not sure how to answer here. Should take a closer look at top landing pages perhaps?

Quote:

---

Second, I'll tell you a little secret... I HATE Twitter with a passion.

---

Seems to be a love it or hate it kinda thing.

Not getting Twitter kinda helps me get those folks who don't understand why some of us pretty much live online.

Quote:

---

Having said that, in my line of work, I can't ignore its popularity. Believe me. I wish I could.

---

I hear you. I'd be willing to do it, if I could see results.

Quote:

---

As for your quote above, I appreciate the offer, but I really wouldn't most of my prospects to read this.

---

Ok, thanks for sharing that. I may be on the wrong track here altogether. Wouldn't be the first time.

Well ok, let's keep going as long as it's interesting to you for some reason or another, and then drop it when it's time.

Quote:

---

raising and rescue of squirrels in north carolina
wildcat campground point reyes
Baby Squirrels
horsetail falls oregon
oneonta falls
new nature videos download
caladesi island
Oconaluftee Visitor Center (Milepost 469) picture
boat in camping at tomales bay
little talbot island state park photos
letchworth state park map of park
map of peaks of otter
blue spring state park
big shoals state park
oceans
are killer whales found in the gulf of mexico

---

Just looking at some of your keywords here, wow. It goes from raising and rescuing squirrels in North Carolina to killer whales in the Gulf of Mexico. That is a pretty big variety.

I think what I would have to recommend is dividing this project up into sub-niches. Take a handful at a time... 6 to 8 or so and focus on those for a few months. Then look at another 6 the next few months.

What those sub-niches are I would leave up to you. If your passion is to become the go to site for information about rescuing squirrels in North Carolina, then focus on that. If you are more interested in educating people on Killer Whales, then let's focus on that.

I guess what I'm getting at is focusing on the main theme of your site being "nature" is just far too broad.

Quote:

---

1) Adsense for now.

2) Get enough traffic to launch a network of nature forums on the site, thus largely automating content creation.

3) Get enough traffic to make it worthwhile to get in affiliate marketing, to diversify beyond Adsense.

4) Introduce my hosting services.

5) Have a career that I enjoy enough that I'd do it for free if I won the lottery.

---

I like #2. It's big. It's ambitious. I like that.

As for #3, what product or products do you have in mind to promote? That may influence what we focus on first.

I'm a little confused about #4... The hosting services. I'm just not putting the dots together between where someone would visit a nature site and the next logical step is getting them signed up for web hosting. Please help me to understand this.

Getting to your newsletter... I think you need to give away something here to get signups. Maybe something like a report of the #10 nature hikes in the United States (assuming you are targeting US traffic). Or maybe a list of "Nature sites you don't know about but should". Just throwing out examples. This is your niche though. You would know better than me. There needs to be something to entice people.

Quote:

---

This seems very different, perhaps the opposite, of the small very targeted sites you seem to focus on.

---

Not necessarily. It's just instead of one niche site, you have many niche sites. We would just need to focus on each niche independently. The advantage you have over someone else that I might work with is someone who we attract in one of your niches, may have an interest in some of your other niches and there is more reason for them to stick around. I think that's a plus.

For the social media marketing, Facebook is almost a must. It's such a popular tool today. Like it or hate it, you're doing yourself a disservice by not using it. What I like best about it is the viral potential of it. For example, I'm trying to talk a local sushi place into letting us work for them. I love this sushi place and any chance I get I tell people in my area about it. The owners are nice as can be. The food is fantastic. I think Facebook would be tremendous for them. As people in the area see their friends become "fans" of the Facebook page, if they never heard of the place, they would probably look them up and try them out or ask people they know about the place. Then they would become fans. All of their friends would see that they just became a fan of this sushi place, and the cycle repeats.

Twitter, like I said, I hate, but it does get results. I've seen it. It's dumb. It's such a stupid thing. But I have been able to drive traffic to a website through Twitter. I almost wish it wasn't true.

Quote:

---

Well, my impression (correct me if I'm wrong) is that your focus and skill is with SEO. So, if we're going to keep this about you more than me, perhaps we should stick with SEO?

---

I like to think that my skill is with online marketing as a whole. I just have a passion for SEO. I think of it like a puzzle that I must solve.

Alright, so you would need to pick a few niches to focus on at this point and we can go from there.

Quote:

---

I guess what I'm getting at is focusing on the main theme of your site being "nature" is just far too broad.

---

I'm agreeable to zeroing in on a specific topic for awhile.

For educational purposes, perhaps we should explain why "nature" is too broad?

Hmm... Perhaps the question is, why would 25 pages on one nature topic be better than 25 pages on 25 nature topics, assuming all pages were made by the same process?

Not arguing, have no point here, don't know the answer myself, just trying to help readers understand why we're doing what we're doing.

Quote:

---

I like #2. It's big. It's ambitious. I like that.

---

My whole approach to all of this is quite ambitious, maybe too ambitious.

Anyway, I have the software for a nature forum network already installed on the site. An unlimited number of full featured, fully independent nature forums, all within my domain.

But I need more traffic to launch it. Maybe three times my current traffic, something like that? Not sure, time will tell. Anyway, that's my automated content strategy.

I have an automated link building strategy underway too, but it needs more of my time to really work.

Too many irons in the fire....

Quote:

---

As for #3, what product or products do you have in mind to promote? That may influence what we focus on first.

---

Truthfully, have no clue. I've been putting that whole topic off until I have more traffic to work with. Honestly, if I could make it with Adsense only, that would be my preference. But not sure that's the best plan.

However, I have one little tool to share. Here's a search tool that searches only leading affiliate program networks.

http://webmaster-engine.com/tools/se...irectories.cgi

Quote:

---

I'm a little confused about #4... The hosting services. I'm just not putting the dots together between where someone would visit a nature site and the next logical step is getting them signed up for web hosting. Please help me to understand this.

---

Ok. First, I didn't create the nature site to promote hosting services. Just trying to make full use of whatever traffic I have.

It's kind like you and the sushi bar. What does sushi have to do with Facebook? Just about everybody is on Facebook now, or should be.

Hosting services are kinda like food, everybody needs them, even nature lovers.

Quote:

---

Getting to your newsletter... I think you need to give away something here to get signups.

---

Yes, you're right. I have 120 full screen Florida nature videos on the site, perhaps I can rework that in to a signup hook. Good idea, good point, will do. Thanks!

Here's what's working best for me now. I've got a full page multimedia ad for the nature newsletter running on the signup confirm page for my ezine service.

I can't really put a big fancy newsletter signup form, with multimedia hooks and bonus offered explained, on the top left of every article on the site.

Thus, I was considering focusing my list building efforts on creating a series of SEO optimized squeeze pages, where I can really present a compelling offer.

What I pictured was, optimize a squeeze page for some keyword, get it ranked well, and then do another one, and another etc.

I realize there is a duplicate content on one site penalty, so I was considering presenting the signup form content via javascript, so the engines wouldn't see it. The engines would only see the unique optimized SEO paragraphs.

Did I explain that well enough? Opinions?

Quote:

---

The advantage you have over someone else that I might work with is someone who we attract in one of your niches, may have an interest in some of your other niches and there is more reason for them to stick around. I think that's a plus.

---

Agreed, yes, you get it. Nature-Talk is the very broad theme within which an infinite number of related topics can be addressed.

The point for me is, only one site to build links to.

And, now I have my worked mapped out for the entire rest of my life. Everyday I get up, and know what to do. No more delays, decisions, distractions etc.

Quote:

---

For the social media marketing, Facebook is almost a must. It's such a popular tool today. Like it or hate it, you're doing yourself a disservice by not using it.

---

I really do agree here as well, and am willing to try Facebook, assuming I'm still allowed to hate Twitter. :)

If you have an unlimited amount of free time available to be our tutor :) we might want to start a new thread about Facebook. I could surely use a Facebook 101 course.

Or perhaps it would be more efficient and reasonable for us to create a list of sites which are already providing such Facebook tutorials.

Quote:

---

What I like best about it is the viral potential of it.

---

I hear you, yes, too powerful to ignore.

Quote:

---

Twitter, like I said, I hate, but it does get results. I've seen it. It's dumb. It's such a stupid thing. But I have been able to drive traffic to a website through Twitter. I almost wish it wasn't true.

---

I have my fingers in my ears, and I'm singing a stupid song very loudly. :)

Quote:

---

I like to think that my skill is with online marketing as a whole. I just have a passion for SEO. I think of it like a puzzle that I must solve.

---

A puzzle to solve, yes, that expresses it well. Your mindset is a good complement to mine, thus this thread has value to me. Hope you're getting something out of it as well.

Quote:

---

Alright, so you would need to pick a few niches to focus on at this point and we can go from there.

---

Ok, will do. Might take me a bit. While I'm working on that, perhaps you might consider my squeeze page theories?

Um, apologies to the original poster, whose thread we have hijacked. Hopefully his confidence will be assisted by the education you are providing here.

Mike, a big THANKS to you.

I took your suggestion, and am just about done adding a signup bonus to our newsletter. We have 100+ nature videos we've taken on our travels around Florida. I created a password protected member area just for subscribers, and made a nice display of the videos there.

All that's left is to create a new subscribe form to present the bonus offer.

Anyway, it's all coming together quite nicely, and I wanted to give credit where it's due.

Thanks again!

No thanks needed, but you're welcome. Always happy to help. Glad to hear it is coming together for you. I'm anxious to see the finished product.

Sorry, I've sort of abandoned this thread recently. It wasn't by choice. I picked up 3 new clients on Thursday. I usually get one or two here and there. Once in awhile 2 in a week. Never 3 in a day. Also picked up an SEO job that is proving to be more difficult than I first expected. I way underpriced myself on this one for the amount of work it is taking. A few power outages as storms ripped through the area and a router dying didn't help any either. Live and learn.

On top of all that, I had been planning a new site I wanted to do for myself and decided to take it this weekend. Girlfriend and kids are at the beach until Tuesday, so it seemed like the ideal time. I've always done Adsense or affiliate marketing of digital products. Never messed around with Amazon, but I had a niche idea that thought Amazon would be perfect for. Kinding of stumbling my way through the Amazon affiliate side today. Not liking it. I thought their Amazon store would be a little more eye catching. It's garbage.

Anyhow, I've been busy as can be all weekend. Things should be getting back to normal in the next day or two.

Then I can get back to wasting time trolling forums again. :)

No worries Mike, I get being busy, and am glad you have lots of good things going. We're not on a deadline here.

Sorry about Amazon. It remains a mystery to me why the biggest companies always seem to have the worst sites.

My net connection went down for a half day this week, got a much needed break. It would probably be good if it went down more often.

Would be happy to give you access to the member area and our videos if that is of interest. You don't even have to subscribe, wow, what a special deal!! :)

Ok, see ya the next time you go trolling.

I was actually going to wait until you were done with everything and then go ahead and subscribe. I'll even use my special email address. The one I actually read.

Ok, good idea. Please stand by, next day or two.

[Um, apologies to the original poster, whose thread we have hijacked. Hopefully his confidence will be assisted by the education you are providing here.]

That's just fine with me! I've been following along with baited breath and learning a ton;).

Ken

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kentheriot

That's just fine with me! I've been following along with baited breath and learning a ton;)

---

Ah, good! Glad to read that, thanks for letting us know.

Ok, my new newsletter subscribe system is ready from any page of my site (nature-talk.com).

I took Mike's advice.

1) Made the signup form prominent, first thing on every page of my site.

2) Added an incentive signup bonus.

Here's a strategy I'm hoping to work, that might be helpful to somebody.

STEP 1: Build the readership of my ezine up from the current 1700 readers. When I have 5,000 - 10,000 readers, then...

STEP 2: Reach out to other nature publishers and offer to announce their new content in my newsletter if they will add a link to my site to their site template.

If it works, the hope is to get one way links from lots of nature sites, using exposure in the newsletter as the bait, instead of a link swap.

I like it.

Three things I might suggest, and you're going to hate me because at least two of them would involve a fair amount of work.

1.) I would make the font bigger and more noticeable for your signup. The text on the left side of the page is kind of small. Doesn't really grab someone's attention.

2.) Love the nature videos, but let's pretend I'm an idiot when it comes to nature. I stumbled across your site and signed up. A little detail of what I am looking at or about to look at is something I think your members would like.

3.) Is it possible to setup the videos to view them on your site rather than by download? Would that eat up too much bandwidth? I think the convenience that would offer would be something people would like better than having to download and unzip anything they want to view. Also, I've come across quite a few people who would like your site, but couldn't unzip a file to save their life.

In the meantime, I've got some videos to download. :)