Is it workable to request some up front payment for work done over the Internet?

[carlos123]

Hi Regina,

Yes...this is turning out to be one of the better threads I have participated in here. Great input and interaction so far. Lots of good learning going on. I like that.

Regarding PayPal...I am not surprised at all that 95% of your customers chose PayPal. I mean a lot has to do with how your payment options are presented, the kind of products you sell, and so forth but overall I think a very high percentage would use PayPal if given the option regardless. Why?

I mean aside from those relatively few who absolutely insist on PayPal I think the biggest reason is probably because most people are more familiar with PayPal than any other payment solution.

Does that mean however that they absolutely won't use another payment solution? No it doesn't.

It just means they are more familiar with it and will choose it more often than other payment solutions in the way you and I might chose a comfortable shoe. It's comfortable.

If it's presented.

But I bet if you and I were presented with a different payment option, only a different payment option, to pay for something from Jimmy D. Brown or even Lynn Terry here other than PayPal that you and I would figure out a way to pay for what they are selling. Assuming we could afford it. Using their preferred payment option. Personally I wouldn't care if I had to go down to the store, buy an envelope, go to the post office, buy a stamp, write a check, put it all together in an envelope and go find a postal outlet to mail it through LOL. If I want to buy something I am going to buy it. I don't care what form of payment option is presented to me.

Personally I don't care at this point if I lose customers because they might not like my payment options without PayPal. Not in view of the fact that I only need a good 5 web development clients per week to make a very good living and many such clients will use me again for repeat business. PayPal or not.

In the pool of possible clients that comprises the entire U.S. internet presence I believe I can find at least 5 clients a week that don't care about whether I offer PayPal or not (once I get properly set up). So I will use whatever payment solution works for me and those 5 clients.

I honestly can't handle more than about 5 new clients a week so why would I want to jump through PayPal's ridiculous hoops just so I can say that I offer PayPal? Makes no sense to me.

After thinking about it long and hard I think I will just offer the ability to pay by echeck and banking bill pay (which sends a check to me) as my main forms of payment options. I think that will be plenty. Sure I may have to market myself a bit more intially but like I said....the pool of potential clients is HUGE. I can't handle more than a teeny weenie fraction of them.

Even if I wanted to. I just can't do it.

If I was selling widgets for $10 each and setting up to sell them almost automatically from my web site that would be different but I sell web development services. Services that take a lot of my time and prevent me from being able to service more than a tiny fraction of potential customers.

It will definitely be interesting to see how all this plays out. That's for sure.

Carlos

PS. Incidentally I am almost ready to get set up with Amazon Payment Systems which is essentially the same thing as PayPal with respect to the credit cards they accept though their terms of service are much more reasonable and their customer service is much more responsive to me than PayPal ever was. I just have a question or two that I am waiting on an answer from them on before I am fully able to offer that as a payment option too. PayPal does not deserve my business and I will do everything in my power to not use them (I changed my mind about considering them again ). Especially if I don't have to. There are a lot of people who feel even more passionate about this than I do.

[CherylAntier]

Hi Carlos and Regina,

First, I agree with Regina about PayPal - It's the only shopping cart I use, because I've found 99% of my customers either use it, or have heard of it, and therefore are willing to pay me (especially first time customers) using it - because they trust it. My initial deposits from clients run in the neighborhood of $500 to $5,000 - and I've never had a problem with PayPal, other than having to jump through hoops once a year or once every couple of years, because I live in the EU.

One suggestion I would make for you, when you launch and you know you're going to start having more money deposited in your account at once - such as for a launch, call them and let them know. I've found that solves the red flag problem - before it becomes one.

You've done a very good job of thinking things through and looking at the "mechanics" behind your business - getting your back-end and system stuff put into place before you start bringing in new clients - or working on your joint ventures - is going to position you to run a profitable and successful business.

I like what you're putting together.

One thing that caught my eye is... let's see... what did you say... (hmmm...can't get the quote thing to work. Ah, technology...) Okay... you said: "...Maybe I need to get away from this and go find me a good templating site that will allow me to offer sites to more clients through the use of such templates but then again...that would make my service almost like an assembly line which I don't like. I like the personal touch where I interact with a client to give them what they want and where I have a chance to be creative in the proposed look and feel of a web site. I am not opposed to using templates. I just don't want to become a cookie cutter web developer..."

Have you thought about offering different levels of service? For example, I remember when I was starting out... I got so frustrated with the technology behind the Website building stuff that I don't even remember how many sites I started - and never finished.

So you might want to do some lurking on forums - this one, the Warrior's Forum - others where there are internet marketers. You could also use Survey Monkey to do a survey and ask your potential target market, or post a poll on your blog... Especially people who are just starting out - see what they're saying - and ask them what they want... it might be you'd find you have a market for those template sites.

People who would be the first ones into your "marketing funnel" - although I see that as an outdated term (note to self finish that darn report when I get home) - and who just want a way to get online quickly, get their feet wet, and start making some money... Many of them would probably become long-term customers of yours - because they'd want the more sophisticated (and appropriately higher-priced) site the next time and the next time and so on...

The other advantage I see for you with this as a base model - is that you can create more of them faster - thus giving you a good foundation of income - where you're not limited to the 4 or 5 customers a week. And with that - you would be able to provide valuable support for Jimmy's customers - or any other internet marketer, as you mentioned above.

So as I see it, you've got 3 possible levels of service - the template - for the "I just want to get it done, and get it up on the web" people...

Then you've got the more customized sites - for the DIY'ers who can buy a license to use your code, and you provide the training necessary - maybe on a monthly membership site? Where you could have videos, pdf files and even audio mp3s perhaps, for people to learn the nuts and bolts behind it...

And finally, you've got the customized "I do everything for you" premium service - perhaps even for those people who are new to the field, but also appealing to those who have "been around the block" and want someone to build the sites around their markets, niches or sub-niches, so they can concentrate on the big-picture money-making end of things... Did I miss anything?

And with this business model, it sounds to me that as you continue to fine-tune it and add in the rest of the details, you'd be in an excellent position to approach established internet marketers - Jimmy or anyone else - and offer your services as an important- and necessary component - to help their customers succeed.

Plus, you'd be able to scale your business so that as demand grows, you can begin either outsourcing, or hiring people who you can train to create sites to meet demand.

One suggestion I'd make is that you start documenting processes now... start creating your training stuff as you go along. For example, with the next site you build, you can use jing - it's a fabulous free screen capture program - that lets you take snapshots of your Website, or do up to a five minute video... and it works with both mac and pc's. So as you're building your next site, think about what you'd need to tell someone to teach them how to do it... And just do it. When you're planning your next site, write down the steps... And do some audio recordings.

You can always polish them later - but if you start preparing your training materials as you go - not only do you stay out of "overwhem" when you start getting customers knocking on your door... And it won't be so overwhelming to think about having to suddenly start putting a training program together.

An additional advantage is that you'll be able to repurpose the training materials in so many different ways to help you market to your customers...

For example, there are lots of internet marketing giveaways every year - in fact, now that I think about it, there are a two or three well-established, reputable ones coming up for the holidays...

They might be an excellent way for you to begin to position yourself and establish your credibility...

Offering a couple of training videos for example, or a free report... would give you a fairly painless and simple way to start building your list quickly.

Anyway, there's my 2 cents worth... If I missed something, or you've got other questions, just ask.

So when were you in France? It sounds like you love it here too... When I was a kid, I always dreamed of traveling and having a passport filled with stamps... Of course, now that the European Union is one big happy country (more or less) there are no more borders, so no more stamps in my passport, but at least I'm living the first part of my dream!

One last thing - don't worry about becoming a gazillionaire - Don't work for anyone else's dream but yours... If your goal is to make $500 to $1000 a week - which is certainly doable - then that's fabulous - go for it! That's a good dream, but most importantly, it's yours... And that's what having your own business is all about.

I won't be online for the rest of the day, as we're now going to head through the Massif Central, and head back home. But when I'm online Monday or Tuesday, I'll look for you! Have a fabulous day! And really, really good job on thinking through what you want your business to look like. I'm sure other people will also have some great input and I'm looking forward to reading more!

Warmly,

Cheryl

[carlos123]

Good morning Cheryl (I read your post late last night but decided to wait till this morning to answer)!

First, I agree with Regina about PayPal - It's the only shopping cart I use...

I would highly suggest Cheryl that you at least consider adding an alternative. Trust me there are people who are absolutely vehement in their not wanting to use PayPal no matter what. Much more passionate about this than me. You'll never know if some of these people came to your site, saw what you had to offer, only the PayPal option, and then...well...decided to just keep on walking.

For now I am content offering just e-checks and a few other payment options without PayPal. Even if that means that some won't buy from me because I don't offer PayPal, let's say 25% won't (which is way higher than it probably is...but let's just say the percentage is that high), that leaves me the other 75% to reach out to. Among those 75% I think I can find a measly 4-5 per week to use my services. I'm okay with that.

Just as you do not know how many are turning away because you only offer PayPal I won't know how many are turning away because I don't. In your case you will continue along happy with your only payment option being PayPal and in mine I will happily go along making my 4-5 clients per week.

Incidentally the hoops that PayPal wanted me to jump through were probably much greater than any that you have had to jump through. They froze my account once because I was on some kind of list. A list they wouldn't tell me anything about. I was kind of tried in absentia, deemed worthy of having my account frozen, not told anything about what this list was, required to send them all kinds of intrusive information, and then I wasn't even guaranteed that they would listen...assuming I could even get any kind of response from them to discuss the whole issue. Imagine if banks operated on that basis and froze accounts on the basis of a nebulous list of some sort that customers names supposedly showed up on? We'd have a near revolution against banks! Instead, with regard to PayPal, we fall into the trap of thinking that such things happen to others and that they will never happen to us. Until...well...maybe it happens to us. Until we become one of the nameless victims of PayPal. If we are only using PayPal our business will go down the drain literally overnight. Best to have an option in place to give clients more choice and to safeguard ourselves against that possibility. Rare...yes...but it could happen. I hope it never does happen to you Cheryl but it could. Just saying.

You've done a very good job of thinking things through and looking at the "mechanics" behind your business...

Thanks Cheryl!

I like what you're putting together.

Wonderful to hear!

Have you thought about offering different levels of service?

I hadn't thought of that. Mostly because I have been focused on being successful in just getting people to try me out first . Although I might have some decent ideas regarding the overall things I have in mind the reality is that right now I am just looking to put bread on the table.

It's an interesting idea Cheryl.

For example, I remember when I was starting out... I got so frustrated with the technology behind the Website building stuff that I don't even remember how many sites I started - and never finished.

Just the kind of client I can work with .

I've been looking at templates a bit and the problem with them is that they often come with restrictive licenses as to what I can and cannot do with them. I'm not sure I can offer them as part of a service I offer to others and get paid for. It's not like I can just offer them to others freely as part of my deals to them directly.

I will have to build up a few templates of my own and perhaps offer those. Or perhaps work out a deal with a top graphic artist that can create the header and footer graphics for me on behalf of my customers or even offer header and footer templates to chose from that could be plugged into any number of different site layouts. Not sure.

The header and the footer are the biggest time consumers. The rest is really a piece of cake and something I could quickly whip together.

I'll have to run that by some graphic artists I have called on (to see about working out a joint venture with them) to see if they would be willing to work with me to provide just the header and footers. I will have to increase my prices of course to compensate them fairly and still make what I want to make from all this. The biggest benefit to me is that it will save me lots of time allowing me to service more clients. While I can definitely create graphic headers and footers I am not the fastest graphic artist around. It's not my strong point at least not yet.

Then you've got the more customized sites - for the DIY'ers who can buy a license to use your code, and you provide the training necessary - maybe on a monthly membership site? Where you could have videos, pdf files and even audio mp3s perhaps, for people to learn the nuts and bolts behind it...

Hmm...that's a thought Cheryl. Hadn't thought of that either!

And finally, you've got the customized "I do everything for you" premium service - perhaps even for those people who are new to the field, but also appealing to those who have "been around the block" and want someone to build the sites around their markets, niches or sub-niches, so they can concentrate on the big-picture money-making end of things... Did I miss anything?

Nope you pretty much covered the potential client types. Bear in mind though that even in a best case scenario the number of clients I can handle is limited by the lack of being able to service more clients other than what I can fit into the space of time given to me in a week.

And with this business model, it sounds to me that as you continue to fine-tune it and add in the rest of the details, you'd be in an excellent position to approach established internet marketers - Jimmy or anyone else - and offer your services as an important- and necessary component - to help their customers succeed.

So much for getting immediate clients rolling LOL. Yes...eventually I would be in a sweet spot for sure Cheryl.

Plus, you'd be able to scale your business so that as demand grows, you can begin either outsourcing, or hiring people who you can train to create sites to meet demand.

Yes...there are a whole slew of Philippinos, really great folks by the way, who would eagerly get on board to program what I need for my growing list of clients. I know someone in the Philippines who is outsourcing herself through one of those free lance places. A really nice mother who operates in integrity. I am sure she knows a number of others who would jump at the chance to work with me and who would be eager to be trained in what I would need done. If the way she writes English is any indication of her English language skills she can probably speak English real well too.

One suggestion I'd make is that you start documenting processes now... start creating your training stuff as you go along.

Already doing that...great suggestion though. Last night I was working some on making my source code more understandable to non-programmers. I'd like to post an example if getting input on something like that is workable on this forum which is really more about internet marketing. Not sure if people on this forum would be interested in giving me input on things like that as I work them out.

Offering a couple of training videos for example, or a free report... would give you a fairly painless and simple way to start building your list quickly.

That's a great idea Cheryl. I could definitely whip up some report or PDF or something like that and offer it for free use by internet marketers as long as there is a link back to my site. Maybe something like that could even go all viral on me.

Anyway, there's my 2 cents worth... If I missed something, or you've got other questions, just ask.

Thanks Cheryl. Much appreciated. Right now it's not so much questions that I have...it's more that I need input on the material I am putting together to see if it truly is easier to understand and easier to work with than WordPress for example. I mean I believe it is but I have to bear in mind that I am a programmer and that understanding my own way of doing things and my source code comes as easily to me...almost...as breathing. It may not be that way for others.

So when were you in France? It sounds like you love it here too...

I lived in Europe when I was in high school. My dad was transferred to Europe to help work on the Fiesta car that Ford came out with quite a few years ago. Germany at first for one year then Spain for two after that.

I absolutely HATED it for the first 6 months. No McDonald's like I was used to...the culture was just so different. Then in a way I don't quite understand I fell in love with Europe. I mean in love with it. I loved everything about it and when it came time for me to return to the States for my college education I couldn't stand the thought of coming back.

My wife and I also went on vacation to Paris and France a few years ago as well. It wasn't the same as it was though. The people seemed to have become much more snobbish in Paris at least.

The two years I lived on the island of Palma de Mallorca while in Spain were some of the best years of my life. Not a care in the world (or so it seems from the vantage point of my present life LOL), money to spend given to me as an allowance from my parents, sailing, horse back riding, hiking, snorkeling, you name it. It was great.

One last thing - don't worry about becoming a gazillionaire - Don't work for anyone else's dream but yours... If your goal is to make $500 to $1000 a week - which is certainly doable - then that's fabulous - go for it! That's a good dream, but most importantly, it's yours... And that's what having your own business is all about.

I'll say Amen to that!

Thanks again for your input Cheryl. Safe journey home.

Carlos

[carlos123]

Hi guys (I guess I should say gals ),

I am waiting to get input on whether I can freely get input from members of this forum generally about the lessons I propose to create to enable me to enter a joint venture with others but until I get input on whether that would be acceptable here...I figured it wouldn't hurt to get input from those of you who have given me input on this thread on the following e-course lesson schedule.

It's tentative but I think it covers most of what is required to successfully create and put up an effective web presence.

E-Course Lesson Schedule (make sure you scroll down the box below to Lesson 13):

Lesson 1:  Overall process of displaying web pages.
           * browser.
           * web server.
           * HTML, CSS, PHP, and JavaScript.
           * databases and FTP.
Lesson 2:  Your own domain.
           * how to pick a domain name.
              - dashes, dots, and extensions.
           * registering a domain through a registrar.
Lesson 3:  Hosting your domain
           * features to look for in a web host.
           * things to watch out for.
Lesson 4:  Basic index file to generate web pages.
Lesson 5:  Creating web page content.
           * simple text files with some HTML and CSS statements.
Lesson 6:  Instructions to work with the index file.
           * adding new pages.
           * deleting pages.
           * taking down pages temporarily.
Lesson 7:  Using CSS to control content presentation.
           * what is CSS?
           * live site examples from my web site.
             - link to sandbox on my site where I visitor can change the look
               of my entire site instantly through changes to my CSS.
Lesson 8:  Using an FTP program.
           * domain name, user name, password, and port.
Lesson 9:  Creating a web page header and footer.
           * link to fuller lesson with images at my site.
Lesson 10: Using a web page background image.
           * link to fuller lesson with images at my site.
Lesson 11: Using a main content background image.
           * link to fuller lesson with images at my site.
Lesson 12: Accepting online paymemts for your services or goods.
Lesson 13: Effective strategies for getting site visitors quickly.

What is neat about this lesson schedule is that several of the lessons will require readers to come to my site to see a more fuller explanation with images or live sandbox ability to try out what I am talking about at my site.

Increasing traffic to my site and increasing the possibility that someone will use my web development services.

One problem I see though. If I let people pay me for a license to use my source code in whatever way they want including the ability to freely share it with others....well...after the first sale to a closely knit subcriber list there will be no need to have others interested in my source code to pay for it. Since members of the list will be able to share it freely LOL.

Perhaps I should give away my source code freely and thereby increase the value of these lessons exponentially. Making them even more popular focusing instead on getting backend sales from those hiring me to create their web sites for them or selling more in depth lessons on using the GIMP to create great web graphics. Or otherwise figuring out what else I can sell those who take my lessons.

I think it is safe to say that if some internet marketers or even one big one like Jimmy D. Brown take me up on using these lessons to provide greater value to their subscribers while indirectly allowing me to offer web development services to their subscribers through my site...that I will be able to probably double what I charge right now and still make out like a bandit. I will have such an increase in site visits by pre-qualified site visitors who might need my type of service that even charging twice will still leave me with enough new clients to more than offset the loss of those who might not like my higher prices.

Again please know that I don't expect continued input from you all indefinitely till this joint venture idea is fully fleshed out, God knows you all have been gracious enough in giving me the input you have already but, if anyone has additional comments on my proposed lesson schedule...it would of course be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Carlos

PS. I've already written Lesson 1 and can probably create an average of one Lesson a day until finished with all 13.