I received an email from Andy Jenkins today regarding the recent accusations that StomperNet is "sexist", and comments on StomperNet being a male-dominated company within the Internet Marketing space.
Andy didnt respond to these comments himself but rather sent me a piece written by Jayne Hallock, Director of Communications at StomperNet. This comes in response to my recent post on the IM Gender Debate, as well as the comments that have been left here on various posts about StomperNet...
After reading those comments, Jayne consulted with 20-something women on staff at StomperNet. This is their collective response:
The StomperNet Bitch Slap
or
How StomperNet Loves The Ladies
An Open Letter from The Women of StomperNet
-
"Wow. Who knew?!"
That's me, doing my best impression of you, after you've read this letter and found out how female-friendly the world of StomperNet really is.
Or maybe you'll be saying something different after you read this letter. Maybe you'll be saying something like -
"Boy, what a bitch."
And that, too, would be okay! Because peevish women are often considered bitchy. Or hormonal, hot-headed, neurotic and nuts.
(Not me. I'm a sweetheart. A regular dollface.) But I am peevish today.
Allow me to introduce myself. I'm StomperNet's Director of Communications. My name's Jayne, or you might also might know me as...
Andy Jenkins.
That's right. I won't say exactly how much, but a whopping percent of what you read "From the Desk of Andy Jenkins" actually originates from the ol' "Keyboard of Jayne."
Me! A chick!
A skirt! Andy Jenkins actually lets a woman ghostwrite for him. Call the white coats, this boy done clearly lost his mind.
I've been happily typing away for years, safe in the comfy backstage of StomperNet. AJ's entrusted me with many important communications, both internal and external and it's a gig I've absolutely loved. (I like the anonymity as well. I'm not what you'd call a "spotlight-hound." )
So why am I peeking out today? Because something's recently happened online that's really cheesed me off. And I think I needed to say something about it. So I've hijacked AJ's account for a moment to let off some steam and to set the record straight.
Ever since we went live with our big bad STSE 2.0 and The Net Effect launch, there's been some "sh**talk" about Andy and what a chauvinist he is.
Actually it's been twittered about, so would that make it "Sh**Twitter?"
Anyway - just because our "Stomper's Dozen" bonus extravaganza didn't include any bonuses from female IM'ers - somehow that makes ANDY a male chauvinist?
Huh?
(Can someone please calculate for me the percentage of Female IM gurus out there, period? How many women teachers are among all the John Reeses, Mike Filsames and Frank Kerns? Please let me know if it's any kind of percentage worth talking about. If it is, we'll print a retraction and I'll eat my...flowery handbag.)
I mean - really.
Blaming StomperNet for a sad state of female IM affairs is lame. StomperNet, in fact, has a disproportionate number of female staffers, faculty and superstar students.
And AJ is anything but a chauvinist.
Oh he's other things. AJ has a big mouth, a ferocious intellect, a loud voice, a passion for fiery debate and weakness for peanut butter bars. He's not perfect, but he's intense. And that's just about the most stimulating kind of person one could work for. (He also has a big, generous heart.)
As tiring as it sometimes is to work at a fast-paced workplace like StomperNet, where expectations are high and the work ethics are insane...I wouldn't want to work any where else. Not just because of AJ himself, but also because of all the super-competent women AJ allows me to work with.
When these women heard that AJ was being called a "boys club" connoisseur, they too got a little annoyed. Some were amused and others were incensed - I figure these average out to a simple 'annoyed.'
So we decided to get together and write up what I am going to lovingly call "The StomperNet Bitch Slap" OR "How StomperNet Loves The Ladies."
Here's what Pam Dodd, best-selling author, long-time Andy student and AJ-appointed former HEAD MODERATOR of StomperNet had to say about AJ:
"What a laugh! Andy Jenkins is quite a character. But a Chauvinist pig? You gotta be kidding!
My name is Pamela Dodd. I'm an organizational psychologist with corporate experience in leadership development and team building. I'm also co-author of the Amazon bestselling book, The 25 Best Time Management Tools & Techniques.
For 18 months I was Head Moderator on StomperNet, reluctantly stepping down recently for health reasons. I was hired because I was the most qualified for the job. Never for a minute did I feel that Andy, or anyone else involved with StomperNet, discriminated against me or favored me specifically because I was a woman.
Let me tell you about Andy Jenkins. His dearest wish is to provide a place where people can learn how to wildly succeed running online businesses. All kinds of people - men and women, young and old, experienced and inexperienced, from every nook and cranny in the world that has a broadband connection.
Our last conference, at Andy's suggestion, we held our first Women's Roundtable. It was well-attended. Nobody whined about feeling left out or lesser-than because they were female in a male-dominated Internet marketing world. All were eager to network and learn.
Andy is committed to attracting more female StomperNet members. The 36% of us Stompers who are women would love to have more women join. With a critical mass, it's just a matter of time before we start cranking out our own experts who can then offer their bonuses to other guru's launches. Nobody would like that better than Andy."
Oh yeah, thank you Pam for reminding me of that!
At our last live event we held a very well-attended "Women in Business" Panel Discussion headed up by AJ's star pupils and moderators. Women he wanted his new Stomper members to learn from, and find inspiration in. By the way, Andy didn't just bless this panel discussion - he THOUGHT of it in the first place.
One of the women we wanted to be part of the panel was Michelle Chance Sangthong. She's another longtime student and friend of AJ's. She's also a huge online success story. Here's what Michelle had to say about this "AJ as Chauvinist" bunkum...
"I am doing some things from the edges and started creating a conversation about this topic openly on Twitter, seen here:
http://search.twitter.com/search?q=michellechance+kathleendonaghy
(Long story short...The other twitterer could only come up with a few names for women she consider that would be successful in the IM space and great presenters too.)
I know that Andy is not discriminatory toward women, and I would be willing to bet if a woman with a great reputation, and a great bonus had been offered up it would not have been refused.
If you're a woman and you want to be included in bonuses and offers... put your stuff on the line and actually tell someone and market yourself. Folks can't know about you if they've never heard of you. And if you have 8 unsolicited bonuses handed to you in the middle of a launch ... why search for more? It's not Andy & Brads fault that the men are more willing to put it on the line."
Michelle talks about the lack of female IM gurus, and she's right. There is a glaring lack. But that's not to say that there are NONE. In fact, let me now introduce you to Audrey Kerwood, Faculty Member of StomperNet and Andy's BUSINESS PARTNER for the past 8 years.
She laughed at this chauvinism thing, too.
Hard.
"Andy has been my business partner for over 7 years, I can with certainty say that he is not trying to keep women down or marginalize them in any way. All of the employees we hired to help run our stores were women and he constantly promotes me as an expert in my field. He brought me onto the StomperNet faculty and was thrilled to do so not only because I'm his trusted business partner but also because I am a woman. I've heard him say numerous times he'd like to see more women in ecommerce and internet marketing. He has done special product promotions in the past partnering with sites that cater specifically to female marketers.
He would have done none of these things if he had a male bias. In all things business I have always been his partner, never his underling. He wouldn't have it any other way."
And here's Donna Brooks, the CONTROLLER of StomperNet. (Now there's a male-dominated field. And yet that pig AJ hired a woman to manage his finances?)
"To be given an opportunity to work with such a dynamic group of exceptionally gifted cream of the crop individuals is such a blessing. The silver lining of that blessing is to be lead by an innovator who cultivates and nurtures those individuals with the tough "love" needed to challenge and raise the bar.
My position is challenging each and every day, due to the atmosphere Andy has created @ StomperNet. I am given the respect, resources and vocal outlet to make a difference that impacts each and every one in the Stomper Universe. Being a part of StomperNet gives me a euphoric high comparable to finding a great pair of Kate Spade stilettos (the last one in the store in my size) marked down 75%. Yes I am very proud to be a minority female "STOMPER" and it wouldn't have been possible had Andy been a chauvinist pig!"
And the list of staffers holding roles of major importance in StomperNet goes on...
StomperNet's affiliate manager is a woman. Her name is Sara Hudson and she says:
"When I was being considered for the Affiliate Manager position at StomperNet, Andy only wanted to know a few things about me... If I was a team player, if I was a hard worker, if I was qualified, and if I was loyal. He asked these things to Tom without ever asking my name. He didn't care if I was a man or a woman. After being hired by StomperNet, Andy was the first to welcome me aboard."
Now meet our Project Managers and Communication Experts, Alicia Vinsant and Mary Bowman:
Alicia says "The female employees of StomperNet undoubtedly have plenty of good things to say about Andy's ability to support, and even promote, the success of the women in his company: he trusts us in positions across nearly every department of the company. And just as he respects and encourages his valued female employees, he also consistently acknowledges the significant group of female StomperNet members. It can be said with confidence that Andy's goal is to take care of all of his employees and members- BOTH male and female."
Mary: "I believe that Andy truly leans on the women of this Stompernet. Some of the most important jobs here are trusted to woman ie; Accounting, organizing and building the Library, and communicating to our members. I know he feels that we will get the job done with professional skill and trusts us to make the right choices in his absence. "
Our beloved office manager Judie Kader kept it short and simple: "Andy treats all women with respect, no matter what age!!!! Thanks Andy!!"
Natalie Smallwood is one of the newest additions to our Customer Advocacy team (which is made up of mostly guys! Isn't that role-reversal kind of interesting?) She says:
I haven't worked here long, and the first thing I noticed about Andy Jenkins was the respect and high regards he has for all of his employees. On my first day he walked in the office and said hello to everyone. I didn't even know who he was- but he took time to speak with me and ask me about myself. I had to ask other people who was "that". Little did I know- he was "the Andy!"
Here is Stacy Price, our billing specialist:
"I am absolutely floored that someone has ever thought or said that Andy does not like women in business. My husband and I then partnered with Andy on a business venture, where he has always listened to my ideas, and took me seriously as a woman. And now, as an employee I still feel that he gives me a lot of opportunity to grow. Andy treats us all the same, whether male or female. I have never had any feeling that he was every holding me back, due to me being a woman."
And finally we'll hear from Andrea Warner, our StomperNet professional coach. She really winds this up a lot more articulately than I could ever hope to:
"Andy Jenkins and StomperNet have done more for me than just about any other man EVER. Me and my Master's Degree were trapped in a dead-end, predominantly women, low-paying job. Even with a Ph.D. in my field, I wouldn't have been able to earn very much money.
Andy and StomperNet have given me the tools to change my life, and by tools, I mean knowledge! By teaching me SEO, internet marketing, and even business strategies, I am going to be able to start my own business, support my family--well!--and not have to work for the man anymore. In other words, Andy is giving me freedom. This freedom is available to anyone who joins StomperNet and applies the things they learn, regardless of gender. Thank you, Andy!"
And thank you Andy...from Jayne.
A shortage of woman in this space would be a distant memory if other CEO's gave woman the same value as you do.
And thank you, bloghounds, for reading this.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Andy and Jayne chose ClickNewz as their outlet for sharing this response from the women of StomperNet due to the obvious interest shown by readers throughout several threads here over the last few weeks.
They've heard from you. You've heard back. Let the discussion continue...
Best,
About Lynn Terry
I want to respond, but after typing two whole pages, I decided all I could say amounted to a bit of drivel.
I don't give a rat's armpit whether a person is male or female if their presentation is honest and believable, and I don't think anyone in a buying mode does either.
If anyone feels they are the victim of any disparity, then I suggest that they follow their own advice and start marketing themselves according to what they are teaching.
Now, I'd like to go back to hearing what Lynn has to say about marketing on the internet, if you please.
Kirk
Much ado about nothing. Does it really matter who's in charge? Or is the real truth more along the lines of what Lynn Terry has and is doing(among others in IM)
Well, at least now I know where all this conversation about the gender debate came from; I'd thought it was just a general topic you decided to discuss one day. Interesting letter, and it is a major truth that behind many male dominated businesses are a heck of a lot of women.
Me? Random? Never 😛
Sometimes... when I've got a bazillion jillion thoughts that I could comment on... I think I better stay calm before responding (and do a little more research into this bitch slap) before I start firing off anything...but...
I'll be back...
http://Twitter.com/CoachDeb
http://TribalSeduction.com
Mitch re:
"behind many male dominated businesses are a heck of a lot of women."
The thing is - women are no longer interested in just being behind a successful man or business - they are running them and men are behind them. (eh-hem - ok that might come off differently than intended... ok - more chilling before I respond more...)
I am not sure how this became an "Andy Jenkins is a chauvinist". I certainly saw none of that from the debate, just the mention that he was quizzed as to where the women were on the panel.
So why the massive response? And why weeks later? Surely this would not be an attempt to use some good opinion venting as a marketing exercise?
Interesting response. I'm not sure where they have seen people calling Andy Jenkins a chauvinist. My experience of the recent gender debate has been very different. And in relation to Stompernet, the comments have simply been that it is strange that the faculty picture hasn't included women. Maybe I've missed some of the comments?
Thank you for explaining the many important roles that women play in Stompernet. It's good to hear and not overly surprising that so many women have management and accounting roles in the organisation.
My only concern is your comment "Can someone please calculate for me the percentage of Female IM gurus out there, period? How many women teachers are among all the John Reeses, Mike Filsames and Frank Kerns?" The main gender debate I have seen has been about whether women (the ones who want to and have the talents) are being given those opportunities to reach the top of their field. I hate the "guru" label, but these "gurus" have achieved this title through both their talents AND their connections (the folks they mastermind with).
I can name many women marketers who are as talented as some of the names mentioned here, but if they are not invited to mastermind with others of that stature (the male "gurus") or to attend the events that raise their stature, their opportunities for reaching "guru" status are limited.
Yes, the percentage of women IMers is smaller and many women have different ambitions and priorities. But a lack of talent? Definitely not.
I find it crazy that so much time and effort has gone into answering accusations that I haven't actually seen around Twitter or the Internet as a whole. In fact, I would think Stompernet would be more concerned with all the comments regarding customer service surrounding the recent NetEffect promotion. I personally tried to contact someone in customer services last week because my package hadn't arrived a month after the stated dispatch date and have still not received a reply. As a result I have cancelled all the continuity orders I had, which is a great shame.
I'm happy to accept that Andy Jenkins is not a chauvinist, and would never have called him such anyway. What I cannot accept, from men or women, is poor business practices.
Lisa how funny that I was just chatting about how this seemed so very much like the political trick of "oh look over there" when diverting attention away from local issues.
I didn't think it was an issue with anyone being a male chauvinist... I'm sure Andy Jenkins, whoever he is, is a fine, upstanding guy. I know lots of fine, upstanding guys - and although most will tell you they are not chauvinists, they are. Kind and gentle and even supportive, but still chauvinists, altho they hide it well.
I don't mind that. I think women can go overboard the other way. Sometimes I go overboard the other way. I admit that I get a bit incensed when things like this happen, and sometimes...it's a harmless oversight. Um, if ignoring a whole gender can be harmless. So, good for Andy that the women on his "staff" support him.
IMHO, Jayne's long post might be a case of "methinks he doth protest too loud." But, when I re-read it, I kind of like Andy, too!
Lynn, would that ALL of us could ignore gender and race - but we can't.
Would that it wouldn't matter, that the only thing that would matter would be expertise... the stuff of dreams.
Andy, and Jayne, and all the others at Stompernet... you seem like good people. People who are not out to ignore anyone, certainly not a large faction of the people, like women. But... if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem. To quote a phrase.
Truth is, I see women ignored everywhere, not just in IM - and maybe IM is starting to pull in women - as they pulled you in, Lynn...maybe if the rest of us just stand up and shout and wave our hands and say, "Over here! Yeah, here's my resume...just as good as his..." the IM world will take notice.
And the rest of the world will follow. If we only get loud enough. (oh, but then, we'd all be...what is it...witches?) What a dilemma!
I dunno... this whole letter based on the perceived "Andy is a chauvinist" thing just totally smacks of some hyped up IM prelude to a sales pitch.
I'm sorry - that may sound harsh - but I agree with others who have said that they weren't getting that the whole IM Gender debate was focused on Andy - I didn't get that at all.
So - why on Earth the retaliation??
And - that's great that he's got all these women working behind the scenes at StomperNet - but that wasn't the topic at all... the topic that I was seeing was all about Women IM'ers - not women who WORK for IM'ers...
So again - this just smacks of some sort of prelude to a promo of some sort... only time will tell, huh?
From my standpoint this gender discussion seem to be pretty much just about inside interaction between you of the internet marketing-to-internet marketers group. I can't imagine Stompernet ever turned down a customer because of gender. I'm pretty sure most of the customers to whom we market are more concerned with the value of the product than anything else. I'm a total equal rights advocate, but I haven't seen any real issue here.
--Wade
What Kirk said...:-)
Clint
This is just the sort of nonsense that I was hoping to avoid by starting up a business at home! I guess you still have to deal with office politics no matter what you do. I'm still yet to start earning my first few dollars and reading all this just makes me so sad. I wouldn't care if it was a green alien that put out information to help me achieve my goal. I appreciate it all equally.
@Lisa Hartwell,
One of these days the "inside story" will be told of how badly we underestimated the demand for STSE2, and how screwed up things got on the fulfillment side, and customer support, as a result.
Even with flawless execution, we'd have had plenty of packages that didn't get delivered, because no shipper is perfect... but the error rate is unacceptable to us, and to our customers.
I'm sorry that we didn't deliver for you. We know that it will take a lot to earn your trust again.
Getting more women with talent "out front" is something the IM world needs. I'd like to think the lack has something to do with what a pain in the *ss it is to deal with the whole circus sideshow nature of the thing.
Lynn's a pretty good example of somebody who could be making a lot of noise, but here she is, just quietly talking to tens of thousands of people. Hmmm.
Thanks for everyone's thoughtful responses thus far.
To a couple of folks you made comments:
1 – Where did the accusations come from?
In The NET EFFECT Journal, we offered readers a chance to ask the authors questions about their articles. There were dozens of responses that called out the Male/Female disparity, making reference to the cover of the Journal.
In many cases, the person writing suggested that I had created a male dominated juggernaut and had no interest in anything Female or IM.
There were several Direct Twitters to me, as well as comments on various blogs about the male-centric nature of the SN faculty picture.
The total amount of responses number near 100.
2 - This is NOT meant to be a distraction of anything - and to suggest such a thing is irresponsible. Let me explain:
We follow Lynn because she adds value to the space. When her original post pinged my Google Alerts, I forwarded it to Jayne, who watched it develop with enthusiasm.
This post was offered because our organization feels strongly about the issue, as evidenced by the contributors to the post. It couldn't be timelier.
We have not posted this on our own blog, or emailed it to our subscribers because we do not need to create the issue out of thin air - it already exists. So, we're remaining on Topic and IN-Market with the conversation right here, on this blog.
3 – Fulfillment Issues. Of course, I expected ANY public communication from StomperNet to be piled onto because:
A) We’re StomperNet – people love to pick on us and we make a great big target. Perhaps you remember another blogger who suggested that everyone unsubscribe from the newsletters that emailed about StomperNet’s launch? I wonder what we did to deserve that? And..
B) The Net Effect Fulfillment process HAS been a bit of nightmare for us AND our customers.
But, we are NOT standing around waiting for the issue to go away. We have offered not only an explanation but also strong action on ANY shipping and fulfillment issues that have taken place during the STSE2 launch. At this point, we have shipped out over 21,000 units - a full 4,000 more than total orders JUST to make sure that we are servicing our customers who didn’t get their package in a timely manner.
NO ONE feels worse about the fulfillment situation than I do. NO ONE.
We've fired the old company, added 2 additional vendors to clean up the mess, refunded or canceled ANYONE who's asked for it, sent replacement orders WITHOUT seeking restitution from UPS... Of the 60 people in StomperNet, 50 are working on these issues. I packed boxes last week. And I was HAPPY to do it.
So, while I totally understand your frustration about this, saying that we are NOT concerned because we enter a discussion on a topic that our company has strong feelings about is simply unfair.
Our "Local Issues" are our capital priority, and any suggestion to the contrary is uniformed and untrue.
At the end of the day, Jayne's response was heartwarming. Being able to offer it to Lynn, who clearly has a stake in the matter, seemed like a 100% appropriate response.
It still does.
And while this conversation is civil because it's in the public eye, I'm pretty sure that none of you can fathom the nature of the vitriol that's been heaped our way as a result of the front cover of The Net Effect or the nature of our FREE Bonuses.
The emails have been NASTY. And keep in mind that this was in the context of a $497 product being offered FREE for the COST of Shipping and Handling with a FREE issue of the Journal with 16 FREE bonuses.
In what world, or rather, what OTHER Market would that kind of offer be met with "You're a Pig Mr. Jenkins"?
That's the germinating issue. And for my part, it's my intention to be a leader in this market for the advancement of women in our space.
I appreciate everyone's perspective, and hope that we've added to the conversation. Please take my comments in the spirit in which they are given.
Best,
Andy Jenkins
What a lot of mush! Does it really matter what the gender is? I figure as long as the customer is being looked after who gives a hoot!
I have to agree with Lisa Hartwell however and take you to task about your comment on the percentage of female IM gurus! Trouble is Lisa calls it Masterminding. I think of it differently... more in the form of a clique or cartel!
The day of reckoning is coming for the clique!
This is Dr. Kangaroo and I'm lookin' out for the little guy!
"Gonna test your hype"
@ Jenn Givler,
If this is a prelude to a sales pitch, I wish someone would tell me, because according to my dashboard, our focus is on servicing the customers we have, not acquiring any more.
Let's do what you suggest and let time tell. My calendar is clear of new product releases until January.
Fair?
Well, color me wrong 😉 Thanks for addressing that Andy - I appreciate your participation in the conversation here.
Lynn said:
"I dont feel as if I have ever been locked out, not given credit, or otherwise treated unfairly in this industry. I am where I am because I put myself there, and I am exactly where I want to be at this exact moment in time."
I have the same sentiment Lynn. I am in a very specific place within internet marketing - I've never felt that because I'm a woman I have been shunned, or not given opportunities.
Like you, I'm very deliberate about what I'm doing and where I'm heading within the industry and within my niche.
Your opportunities - no matter what industry you're in - are self-created... whether people choose to see that or not.
I enjoy being part of your community Lynn for lots of reasons... but a very big one is your candor, your sincerity, and your willingness to put what you're feeling out there.
"Lynn’s a pretty good example of somebody who could be making a lot of noise, but here she is, just quietly talking to tens of thousands of people. Hmmm."
But that's my point, Dan. The comment about there being no female internet marketing "gurus" was a strange one because people like Lynn are at the top of their field helping people every day. They are there, they just don't seem to get the same sort of credit as the men. Some may want that credit and some may not, but when your own staff suggest the women are not "up there" with the men but are excellent behind-the-scenes people, it certainly doesn't help.
As for the customer service issue, I know this was a huge promotion - clearly bigger than was expected (although with Stompernet's reputation there should have been some realization it would be a biggie). But customer service should be top of your list both to ensure the continuation of your good reputation and to maximise your profits. How many people have cancelled, like me, because they didn't receive an answer to a query and didn't want to be hit for the continuity payment before receiving the initial package? Even a simple autoresponder with details of a knowledgebase/FAQs would have been better than complete silence.
I did receive my package this weekend and what I have watched/read so far is excellent, but I have reached my limit for accepting poor customer service online. Stompernet isn't the first, and had this been 6 months ago I probably would have accepted it meekly (yeh, ok I don't do a lot meekly - does it show?) because you do have a fantastic reputation, but I have reached my limit of major hyped-up launches with poor customer service/follow-up. Apologies that Stompernet are the ones that have born the brunt of my general frustrations with many online "gurus" - you definitely are not alone, just the most recent.
This is getting so long winded and silly, I thought I'd use it as a chance to hide another link in Lynn's blog so I can get a bunch of Manna points from Google.
Cheers.
PS - I'm tuning out of this debate now. I thought it might get interesting, but it seems like it's starting to churn, and you know what starts to smell the more you stir it.
Lisa,
Please accept my personal apology for the lack of communication.
For the record, we have FAQ's, Autoresponders, have sent directed emails to customers...
We use “Salesforce†(a enterprise level CRM solution), Email Labs to send email (Which has a 99% deliverability rate, Microsoft Dynamics CRM, all top shelf systems to try to keep our customers in the loop.
... my only point is, we made and are continuing to make every effort to smooth out the delivery issues.
I'm very sorry that you were among the list of people that got lost in the landslide. I'm glad that you like what you did eventually receive - so... there's that.
🙂
I can say, with as much certainty as I am able that because we've changed vendors that this sort of issue will NEVER happen again.
We WANT to offer customer service that's equal to our products -- it would be stupid and short sighted for us to deploy great information and lose customers because of bad service.
Like I said, we really got hammered because of a fulfillment vendor. But that's not an excuse we expect our customers to live with. So, we've hired new services and are running as fast as we can to make it right.
I know it’s a little too little too late, but it’s sincere – people like you mean a ton to our organization, and it’s awful to lose them because of things like shipping, email deliverability, etc.
When you say "people like Lynn" I realize this is a general representation - but I did want to respond to that on a personal level as well.
I dont feel as if I have ever been locked out, not given credit, or otherwise treated unfairly in this industry. I am where I am because I put myself there, and I am exactly where I want to be at this exact moment in time.
As for my future plans - which are heavy in the works behind the scenes - I know exactly where I am going, and expect to arrive there without issue.
I have my own inner circle and personal network, which is made up of both men and women alike. And every deliberate step forward that I have made... they have been there to support & assist.
In fact, I can attribute a large part of my success to Mike Merz, who initiated many of the connections that have continued to help me along the way.
I chose to fly under the radar for many years because my son was ill, and later because I was taking care of my Grandmother during her last 2 years. Those were not times that I was interested in traveling, speaking, or getting engaged in high-level partnerships.
Many of you have known me for years - some a decade or more. And you've seen me raise my children, and in the last couple of years take my business to a new level. All of this was done deliberately on my end - and I'll continue to move forward at the pace I choose. One that works for me, for my business and for my family.
All that to say that my position in the industry has nothing to do with anyone - except me. And that's how it will continue to be.
When I get good and ready to take the IM Stage, whether that's next week or next year - I have no doubt I'll be welcomed there... in my own right (tongue in cheek, just for Donna Fox 😉 )
My experience has been a positive one. As I said in my original IM Gender Debate blog post, I'm concerned at how the debate itself will affect our industry.
Hi Andy
Irresponsible? Well no I will disagree there. Off the mark? Maybe. Perception is everything and swinging a sledgehammer at what the spectators see as a walnut, will make them wonder.
The gender debate will ALWAYS be there, smile and walk away from that one because there is no simple answer unless you have the courage to say truthfully "we haven't found a woman that fits our style of marketing".... you won't lose member numbers. You may change member names though.
As for customer service. Take your smacks, you deserve them. It will pass soon enough 🙂
Look it's pretty simple, women marketers are never gonna be let into "the clique" unless they're just doing office duties. No matter how highfalutin their titles may be!
The successful ones will do it all on their own with a little bit of help from the sisterhood network.
It's a fact of life people.
Most women marketers I know will tell you that they'd never contemplate some of the tricks "the clique" gets up to!
So what is the point of all of this? Who cares what the gender is? Learn your craft... treat your customer right... exceed their value expectations and you'll succeed be you man or woman!
This Dr. Kangaroo and I'm lookin' out for the little guy! "Gonna test your hype"
ok, Doctor you have inspired me to say something profound here... The clique you refer to is not going to be accessible for at least 98% of us anyways, so I think its safe to say we are all kinda on our own whether we are female or male, black or white, Muslim or Christian. We all have to do the work of many until such time that we can afford to get outside help. I don't know about you, but I plan on doing the work and hopefully I will see you on the flipside.
Clint
@Clint Anderson - Amen brother! What we can do however is support each other so that we do not fall prey to the hype... but that's another topic altogether isn't it?
This Dr. Kangaroo and I’m lookin’ out for the little guy! “Gonna test your hypeâ€
I'm very new to the world of IM (I'm female too, in case you didn't get that from my name 🙂 ). I have, however, spent the majority of my working life in male dominated fields (engineering, manufacturing & IT) in both male and female dominated roles. I don't see IM as being a whole lot different to other industries in respect to this argument. To be honest I've never really got the whole glass ceiling thing.
Some observations I've made about the IM industry in my short time here are:
1. It's male dominated. There are simply more men in IM than women. It follows therefore that any panels, boards, faculties, guruhoods or whatever are going to be male dominated.
2. Over the last couple of months I've seen maybe a dozen launches using varying degrees of hoopla. None of them have been from women. Either women aren't doing this type of marketing or they're targeting much more tightly. (I haven't included SWBN because I don't think they've officially "launched" yet).
4. There are some really smart women in IM, they just seem to be not as "out there" as the blokes. For the vast majority I imagine this is their choice.
3. The IM industry is no different to any other male dominated industry. Boys talk about stuff with boys. Girls are more than welcome to join in if they would just get over themselves and do it.
Last comment: Thanks to Andy for participating. Good form.
I have been ignored and talked down to, as a woman. Sometimes it's my gender, sometimes it's my age. It's never fun.
I applaud Lynn and all the outstanding women in IM today. I applaud all the men who support good work, without that 'gender' focus.
But, we have a long way to go. And, placing blame is not how we get there. I like this conversation. It proves that women can compete - albeit, we have to be louder, better, and more aggressive than we might like to be.
So be it - for now. Time will see big changes... and I will get over all those previous insults that still sting.
Lynn, I appreciate your stance on this topic with great admiration. Your last blog post on personal responsibility, http://www.clicknewz.com/1725/personal-responsibility/ is a wise introduction to this topic.
I choose to do things "under the radar" to use your term, as I learn the ropes of building a business the right way.
I aspire to balance the chaotic interior and exterior challenges of doing what I do each day. I don't always make the mark and wondered what I could add to this discussion.
To be bold, to be confident, to be adept, to be vicelike in seeing where you want to go, is gender irrelevant and is what I see in those who are successful doing what I wish to do.
What I would like to see as a result of this discussion is more visibility of women who want to be available and publicly recognized for sharing expertise.
It already does happen, though, every day if we look for it. It can happen more as we become aware of who we want to learn from.
Mediocrity of commitment or content just won't survive, and both men and women can step up to that call. I would like to become one of those women who step up, in my own way, at my own pace, in the path that I choose.
Thank you, Lynn, for giving a platform for me to take baby steps in this discussion; thank you, to all involved with Stompernet for your invaluable teaching; and thank you to all who express your opinions publicly here.
May we all be blessed with freedom of speech always...
Best for now,
Mary
I was just reading your article and I see that it is quite a "hot" topic. I appreciate all that was said. Thanks for the insight.
Hi, Jayne here. I have been reading these comments with great interest. There's a lot I'd like to rebut but, like Lynn, I don't really want to add more to this pretty divisive debate. So I'll bite my tongue (for once) But I do have to correct one thing: there were no women on the original TNE cover because our female faculty couldn't make the photo shoot. That's about as devious as that got.
And don't be surprised if you see SEVERAL female authors, in upcoming Net Effect issues.
Freedom of speech is a blessing and thank you Mary for reminding us of that. On the internet in particular, there are practically no restraints about what what one person may say about another. Opinions, good and bad run rampant. The point is that it is reckless to draw assumptions about an individual (ie Andy Jenkins) based on the fact that there was not a female pictured on the cover of the Net Effect magazine...or whatever caused this whole conversation. And, I have to say this, Lynn, I am not pointing my finger at you, because I do not have the facts as to WHO actually made the assumption or started the conversation, but my general statement to the person or persons pointing fingers at Andy Jenkins is that you really should get to know a person well before you start flaming them or pointing out their mistakes. However, I am not naive enough enough to think my post will be the last of any discussion about StomperNet, Andy Jenkins and etc. I do know when you a@% is at the top of the flagpole it shines for everybody to see. Because Stompernet has evolved into a premier IM company, they will always be discussed.
But the question is left un-answered...what do women do about the male dominated IM profession overall, make your mark, work your butt off, develop cutting edge products that add value to the market place and spend your time developing your unique selling proposition and do it better than anyone, male or female. Get up the next day and do it again.
Inequalities are a part of life, life can be unfair. But it is the successful individual, that knows, when they look at themselves in the mirror every morning, that ultimately it is up to them. So girls, roll with the punches that come your way and instead of bitching about what others are doing or not doing, work on your own game plan and make a good name for yourself. That will move you forward faster than you can imagine.
I am certainly not saying that you should accept whatever you think the status quo is or isn't. Just get your facts right before you start bloviating. Given a choice...(1) build up your own reputation or (2) criticize others, the second choice is always easier, but where DOES that get you? How much money does that make you? Does that improve conversion?
Well said. I love the points you made!
And for the record, you're correct: I did NOT start this conversation or debate. I actually did my best to stay out of it.
I was hands-on involved with the most recent StomperNet launch, and was the only female in the Top 20 on their affiliate leaderboard. Suffice it to say, that drew the discussion in this direction which I responded to here.
And by the way, the fact that I was the only female in the Top 20 is not a testament to the inequality in the market. Its a testament to my skills. 😀
Well...umm... that post really didn't sit right with me at all but I haven't read about the whole debate thing.
All I know is that I ordered the Net Effect and have never received it. 🙁 And I agree with Kirk too, please let's just stick to Lynn's great IM advice.
I thought the letter from Jayne was rather harsh and hostile to women. It was telling women to shut up already from a woman. As if coming from a woman makes it alright. How disrespectful really. Why so hostile? Calm down and reason like an adult already.
Nice "straw man" arguement thrown in there about the chauvinist comment meant to divert attention away from the fact there are no women on faculty. Nice try.
Please deal with the issue at hand. Why are there no women faculty members on StomperNet?
Just because women do the administrative clerical work and writing doesn't make them faculty. It makes them the hired help.
Where are the women faculty at your organization? It's a simple question.
There are women faculty in universities why not your institute? The letter addressed nothing and was very hostile.
The sexism in internet marketing and the gurus is another subject for another day. Hard to believe that so many internet marketing gurus attended and supported the Rich Jerk Mastermind session held in the PlayboyMansion just a year ago. The original sales letter contained a gay slur. Questions about the sexism of top internet marketers is the subject for another day and another post though . Hard to believe though this event only took place a year ago.
There are women on the StomperNet faculty.
Audrey Kerwood is one, Sydney Johnston is another and we likely have more in the works. So...
PS Wasn't trying to be hostile, sorry you took it that way.
And there's a big difference between writing for the CEO, doing the work of a CFO, being a teacher to the membership, handling the entire moderation of a premium international community's forums...and doing 'clerical work.'
Well it is about time to have this discussion...let me share my brief experience had last week.
this is a conversation I had with a chap named guru secrets
me: I will have you know I am pretty advanced....my ambition is to teach SEO and website design to women so they begin to enjoy these lucrative incomes that you men have....YAY!
gurusecrets: i am putting some final touches on the
video training 1st step keyword research and you are not kidding 97% of my visitors
are male its nuts! i cant wait for you to
be that example 🙂
A response from some lady in the stomper net team who knows Andy Jenkins is great, but it doesn't address the real issue here
i) As donna fox has shown time and time again internet marketers are sexist (here recent attendance of eben pagans deal)
ii) sexism does exist
this is time for dialogue and that piece was in poor taste using swear words as a means of communicating does not impress.
You know it's like those crazy folk that keep telling me racism is a fallacy...hmmm well not to get political, however that response not coming from Andy Jenkins himself seems to indicate that the issue is not weighty enough to merit a response from him?
Arrrrgh!
I loved this post. keep it coming lynn!
At the risk of repeating myself... the guru clique exists... and what's more it's a closed shop!
The "LIST" is owned by the clique and it exists only for the clique!
The sisterhood needs to get it's own clique going. Too many women out there doing it by themselves!
This is Dr. Kangaroo and I'm lookin' out for the little guy! - Gonna test your hype!
@Party Plan Pat:
Oh no you didn't... 🙂
To suggest that the issue is not "weighty enough" for me to respond is just lame. It's lame, Pat. Not only have I responded to this issue by providing actual ACTION in the form of REAL support to woman in the internet marketing space, I made sure that the woman that are part of StomperNet were the FIRST group to be heard from on the topic.
I didn't and won't respond to being called a male chauvinist pig - not matter how important the matter is. And to suggest that you’re not impressed because HUMOR was used in the context of this issue is picking nits.
The fact is, I've SCREAMED that there's inequality in the IM space from the TOP OF MY LUNGS.
The difference between StomperNet and everyone else that pays it lip service is that WE'RE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
So let's end the "Andy Jenkins is a bad guy" talk because the response to this issue came from the woman that are a major part of StomperNet and not Andy Jenkins.
It’s pretty disingenuous to take shots at us…
When almost half of my organization is made up of women in executive positions...
When I've got several woman faculty members, (not just Audrey -- my *cough* woman PARTNER)...
When StomperNet has 3 articles from Woman in The Net Effect Journal (Including one from Lynn, thank you very much)
When StomperNet's membership is on average 2x the number of woman than other IM "boys' clubs"...
When StomperNet has held the ONLY "Woman in Business" panel discussion at a live IM seminar...
...suggesting that I don't think the issue is weighty is... I dunno - how about WRONG?
I mean honestly, we are ACTIVELY doing more than our share of advancing the female presence and voice in this space. What in the world would possess you take a shot at me?
You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts - Seriously, other than an IM company that’s owned and operated by a woman, WHO ELSE is doing as much as we are?
No One. And for the record, ask Donna Fox what I talked to her about at Eben Pagan’s meet-up. I’ll give you a hint: Even STRONGER support for woman in IM.
Aim your cannons elsewhere, you’ve got the wrong target – we’re TRYING TO HELP.
Sheesh.
That's a better response Andy.... real!
Good stuff Andy!
The IM boys club you refer to is now generally known as "the clique".
It's a pity that SN has copped such a beating about this because people make direct comments about you and your org. obviously don't have the facts.
The thing is, had your first post been like your last one you could have headed all this at the pass so to speak.
And Andy... when your org. is under attack, methinks it is not such a good idea to have other people post answers onbehalf of your org.
But keep up the good work... cause in the end that's all that can be tested. And yes... I agree... unlike "the clique" your org. is doing something to further women's issues in the IM arena.
This is Dr. Kangaroo and I'm lookin' after the little guy - Gonna test your hype.
I, for one, will only be satisfied if Andy puts on a grass skirt and dances on Youtube. Oh, wait. Never mind. Not so satisfying after all.
The cover on Issue 1 of Net Effect says it all
To pick up on what Lisa Hartwell said, I'm also surprised at the talk of sexism when their customer service is so poor. I joined SMARTS. It dragged on longer than the 12 original weeks. Some people had planned vacations and such after that original 12-week time period. Stomper said that it was too bad if they were not able to download the last week. I was shocked. We the customer had been flexible with them changing the schedule on us midstream and they were not flexible back.
Then, there's also the fact that some of the info taught was not accurate and I often knew more than the teacher. But, I digress.
To each his own in running a business. I don't plan to buy any more Stomper services.
Wow...I just listened to the Internet Marketing podcast and Lynn referred to this "response" on her site from StomperNet. I must say I was a little surprised at the tone...I, too, followed the conversations in the forums and Twitter about this and never heard/read/saw anything that accused Andy of being a chauvinist. And I don't think it's a fair statement, either. I don't know Andy personally, but I have bought a bunch of training from SN over the years and never felt that he was even close to sexist. Now having said that, when I received my first issue of The Net Effect and the accompanying STSE2 I did include a mention about the cover (along with a positive post about the materials)...it glared by the lack of any "cover girls" (http://blog.wwork.com/2008/women-business/woman-small-business/). It was not mean-spirited...simply an observation and a question "Why?"
SN can learn from this...They are the dominant organization in SEO and all "growed up" from the Brad and Andy show from years back. There are legitimate opportunities for improvement and should be taken as such. Much of what I heard were not personal attacks and should not be taken personally.
Instead of what might be interpreted as an overly sensitive response to a handful of mean-spirited, jealous critics it might have been better to accept the feedback, acknowledge that "we blew this one," and learn from the mistake.
Damn, it's tough at the top 😉
@Dan- Giggling at the grass skirt comment! haha!
For MY thoughts on this topic, see my latest post at: http://www.clicknewz.com/1748/breaking-into-the-boys-club/
😉
Do people honestly believe this is a real concern? You don't know their operation so how can you judge... I'm sure Stomper is a great place for everybody to work.
No responses? How about now that Andy has sold his share of Stomper to Brad? What do you have to say about him now that he's gone?
Thomas - Stompernet Member
Dunno about anyone else, but I feel exactly the same way 😉